front prop

[colintandy]

what is the name of the front prop required to solve the binding and vibration problem is it double cardon and are they expensive is that the best way to go regards colin

[Tigger]

Depends what is causing the vibrations.

Don't go throwing a couple of hundred quid at it until you are sure that is the problem.

What are the symptoms, what is your current set up ?

[colintandy]

:D hi tim it cos the angle is way out after correcting the radius arms got a 2 inch lift ect... after curing the arms the prop started to vibrate and i belive this is causing   exceesive wear on the gear box ive started to get a  :oops: slap when changing up/down/reverse is an auto box not happy about that so i think that double cardon is the best way to go after reading many threads on here and devon4x4fourum but not 100% sure but dont want to end up paying out for a recon box ive taken my truck of road for now till i cure problem just to be safe    

[Budgie]

It's the top end U/J on the propshaft Colin. Now you've corrected the radius arms it has straightened the diff U/J and caused the transfer box one to increase it's angle.
This is causing the top one to "pulse" on it's own. Normally, with both U/js at a slight angle, they will cancel out the pulsing of the other but because only one of yours is at an angle now then yor getting the vibration.

The only real cure is to either put the original radius arms back on or get a double carden propshaft & transfer box flange.
They ain't cheap but do the job!  

I got mine from Devon 4x4 but you can also get them from Scorpion Racing, in which case theirs dont need the TD5 flange for the transfer box but are not a standard LR part.

[colintandy]

:D yeah thanks budgie i was looking at some of the old threads from last year that you posted and it seems that th general best cure is as you say put the old radiuse arms back on or go for the double cardon which i have just done from scorpion not cheap though as you say gulp....but hey it will do the job alot better than a wider yoke  as i know some guys have tried ..just hope hasent done to much damage to the gear box she starting to slap a little when changing up/down/and reverse....can see another job on its way  

[Range Rover Blues]

Let's have it right, a Cardon joint is a double UJ, a double Cardon joint would be something to see :shock:

I'd steer clear of the Scrapion prop TBH, there is a reason why LR didn't use that joint themselves, the TD5 prop uses a bigger joint that I think is stronger, just my opinion!

[Range Rover Blues]

did you read this recent thread?

http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=16053&highlight=cardan

[Budgie]

Let's have it right, a Cardon joint is a double UJ, a double Cardon joint would be something to see :shock:

Well, if we're talking about getting it right.......................

Is it a CARDON, CARDAN or CARDEN joint?  :D

[nichollsm]

Just to give you a bit of background I'm a Development Engineer at GKN Driveline Propshaft Division and have worked on design and manufacture of propshafts for nearly 20 years. Our plant provides 100% of the propshafts to LR and has done for eternity.

To answer your questions the correct term is Cardan Joint. Otherwise known as Hooke's Joint or Universal Joint. And yes there is such a beast as a Double Cardan. The double Cardan for LR was designed by GKN to solve a specific problem on Discos.

As a matter of interest a single Cardan joint should only typical run at max 4-5 degrees whereas a Double Cardan only achieves constant velocity at its designed operating angle. From memory the original Disco Double Cardan was designed to run at 13 degrees. Running away from this will cause NVH(Noise Vibration and Harshness) issues but this would not be noticeable without instrumentation.

[Budgie]

Thanks for the info, always helps to have an expert in the club.  

The double cardan props are very good at releaving the propshaft vibration we experience when the vehicle has been lifted but 2 to 4 inches and new radius arms are fitted to correct the caster angle on the steering.

It's worked wonders on my 95 Disco, the steering now feels like it did before the lift and there is no vibration from the front propshaft at all.  :D

Here's the operating angle on my front prop, not that you can see it that well from the angle the photo was taken as.  :roll:




Nice to have you on board, I'm sure you knowledge of these items will be called upon in the future, its a question that comes up on a regular basis.  :D

[Hissy]

I have a 300Tdi discovery (1997). Fitted with a 2" Lift Kit.
Because the front prop, transfer box output flange etc, are more out of line than they should be. I've broken two uj's (transfer box end).
To try and cure the problem i've fitted a Td5 front prop with the Cardon Joint (approx £170 from Britpart). The transfer box output flange also has to be changed (flange,oil seal, nut, felt washer,large cir-clip, nuts & bolts) got the whole lot from a local gearbox rebuilder for £20.
A big reduction in vibration :(bigsmile):
Now i just gotta sort the back end out :(bigshock):

[Damonski]

All these extra costs for props and things are what really put me off lifting mine. Although I really want to see it 2" higher :(

What would be nice to see is a total shopping list for really doing the job properly.

Shocks, Springs, Brake Pipes, arms, front/rear props etc.  Can someone put that together in a new post that can then be made sticky on the forum?

Unfortunately i dont like the idea of trying the 2" lift and the "you might be ok without changing the prop" lol

[nichollsm]

Unfortunately i dont like the idea of trying the 2" lift and the "you might be ok without changing the prop" lol

I havn't done the calculations but if anyone is proposing to make a 2" lift then the front prop will have to be upgraded to a double hookes in every case. The installation angle is just too high for a single cardan (above 3-5 degrees which is optimum). The existing single cardan may work initially but its life will be reduced dramatically and failure is inevitable.

As a matter of interest. On TD5 diesel auto's we fitted a special sliding joint to reduce vibration at tickover. It is a known internally as a ball spline. I would recommend this upgrade for any Disco owner as it is a far superior sliding joint than the conventional.

Forgot to add. Disco Owner, 02 TD5 Adventurer. Propshaft upgrade (ball spline) :) .

[Budgie]

As a matter of interest. On TD5 diesel auto's we fitted a special sliding joint to reduce vibration at tickover. It is a known internally as a ball spline. I would recommend this upgrade for any Disco owner as it is a far superior sliding joint than the conventional.

Forgot to add. Disco Owner, 02 TD5 Adventurer. Propshaft upgrade (ball spline) :) .

Is this an upgrade as in something you can fit to the existing propshaft or does it require a whole new propshaft? (I think I already know the answer but it's best to ask!!  :lol: )
I only ask cos most of us that have the double cardan prop fitted don't want to spend another £150 - £200+ for another new propshaft but it'll be handy for those looking at an initial change.  :D

GKN & Land Rover part numbers would be handy if you happen to have them.  

[nichollsm]

Is this an upgrade as in something you can fit to the existing propshaft or does it require a whole new propshaft?

Whole new prop I'm afraid. I'll post LR part numbers when I manage to look them up at work next week.

[Budgie]

Good Man!  =D>

[colintandy]

:D you are fine putting a 2 lift on truck without changing the prop its when you change the raduse arms this is what starts putting the angles all on the pixx as long as you take precaution in your driving methods the only mods you would have to do would be your brake lines but just remember that you are raising your centre of gravity with a 2 inch lift and this is detremental to the way the vehicle handles on and off road regards colin :D

[evang]

Some LR's have no problems or vibs you can live with, with 2 inch lifts.

But my advice if unlucky and you do. Then cheapest method:-

For Propshaft Vibs and pulsing and the transfere box and front diff are o.k

First Step Check your springs. Determine your lift height. Level your vehicle if required. My 300tdi was 2.5 inches out front lower then the rear due to wieght of winch and other bits. The front only had over 1.25 inch lift. Fitted 1 inch wizard spacers ( still waiting for reply from Scorpion on springs). If I had sussed this out 1st and levelled the vehicle I my have not need the other bits.

Still having Propshaft Vibs and pulsing and/or tram lining /vague steering
2nd step fit castor correction arms

Still not happy after extensive road tests. Some have vibs on over run at 70mph.

3rd step Disco 2 DC Prop + flange and propshaft spacer(made by wizard).

Possibly the utlimate set up with a 2 inch lift is castor correction arms + a Disco 2 DC Prop this hopefully give's peace of mind and a empty wallet!!!! but this seems to only be required by us unluckly ones as some disco's and LR's have no problems. It depends if your a fussy bXXXXX like me or can live with the vibrations or tram lining in the steering

Cheers Lads

[Budgie]

propshaft spacer(made by wizard).

........and designed by Budgie!!  :mrgreen:

Have you got it fitted yet?

[evang]

Sorry Propshaft spacers 'well designed and tested' by Budgie.

The spacer has been tried on the bench on both a propshaft and output shaft and fits nice, but had to drill the bolt holes out a bit. It is made of Aluminuim.

Not had a chance to fit as gone back to work

Budgie from your photos the angle of my front prop u/j looks the same as yours and depending on road surface my Disco runs overall pretty smooth. Thanks for the info on suspension hieghts and the prop spacers.

[Wanderer]

On my 200tdi I didn't need any spacers. It went straight on with no problems.

[Budgie]

Thanks for the info on suspension hieghts and the prop spacers.

Happy to help.  :D

Ed, mine went on ok but with the 3" lift then it was a bit too close to the full stretch of the propshaft and I wanted a bit of leeway so I had the 10mm thick spacers made, just to give that little bit of extra travel.  

Much cheaper than getting a new propshaft made!!  :D