Hi-Lift Jacks

[muddyweb]

I'm not saying either way is more right or wrong than the other.. but don't forget many online retailers don't just sell to people where VAT is applicable, particularly overseas...   so, you either need to add it on, or take it off at some point.   Generally speaking, it is easier for people in the UK to understand a price + vat than it is for an overseas buyer to work out what our vat rates are and take the tax off.

Now, you have a few options...   first, you make the shopper choose where they live before you show them any prices... but that's a pain for shoppers.   Or, you show all the prices including UK VAT, and make people work it out... which is a pain for some people.  Or you show the prices ex vat.. which is a pain for other people.

Which way you jump depends on a lot of factors, including your customer base, and the feedback you get from the people who use your site.  If feddback dictates a certain way is best, then sometimes you need to change it.

As for a 'delivered to door' price... that's even harder.   With a car in the UK... it's not too bad.  But when your product range varies from a gasket through to a winch bumper...  and all combinations of stuff in between (including things like batteries and glass which have their own special requirements), then giving a 'price to the door' on each item is virtually impossible....  because again, you need to know where the person is.  

If a retailer sells online only to UK customers, and those customers buy one thing at a time....  it's all very easy.

The reality sadly isn't quite so clear-cut

[V8MoneyPit]

...... P.S.  According to the VAT man it's goods + carriage (postage) + VAT

Just to add another spanner in the works....
The above applies except where the goods are VAT Exempt or Zero rated, when the carriage is not subject to VAT.
Now, if part of the goods supply is zero rated and part is subject to VAT, the merchant can either charge VAT on the complete carriage charge or on a percentage of the carriage charge split proportionate to the goods value. As long as they are consistant in the method used, either can be utilised.

Tim's post is exactly the problem we have. If we had an internet order for an exhaust part and a sealed beam headlight, it is virtually impossible to pre-define the carriage charge wherever we are sending it. We could, of course, just apply a blanket carriage charge, but this would be grossly unfair on someone ordering a set of contact breakers and they probably wouldn't buy them. We certainly find that 99% of customers are happy with us adding a realistic carriage charge on after they place the order. The total is e-mailed to them with confirmation of despatch.

Incidentally, we do provide clear examples of carriage charges on the web site so that customers get some idea of what to expect.

[muddyweb]

OK... after posting this and having a cup of tea... I've got another option...  show both inclusive and exclusive prices on the site.  (I'm in the process of updating ours to do just that)

The carriage thing is the hard one...   the way ours works is that the system takes a punt at the carriage... and then we will tweak it afterwards.  99.99% of the time the system is about right or slightly over... and when it is over, we charge the lower rate.  It's not a perfect world, but many online retailers work that way.

[Mace]

Tim. If I can give you my perspective as a customer and a retailer for 16 years (12 of which I've been a self employed retailer). I'm sure you are aware that VAT is applicable on the supply of goods in the country of origin (unless it is being exported). A very high percentage of UK retailers supply their home market 1st. I would have to dissagree with you on your comment that most UK customers would rather see a net price rather than a gross price. High Street stores are not allowed to add anything to the prices displayed in their windows, in no uncertain terms it's deception according to Trading Standards. The price you see is the price you pay. I cannot imagine what reaction the UK would give to a reversal of this law and High Street stores were allowed to show net prices + VAT. It just will not happen. The UK population are used to seeing a gross price and they feel the same way about on-line retailing. Do a poll on here if you like and see what the results would be. If Paddocks (as an example) place an advert in a UK magazine they show all their prices gross of VAT, yet their website shows prices nett of VAT. This is confusing to the general public. So far trading standards haven't quite got to grips with the on-line world but it won't be long before they do.  

As for the freedom of choice as to where you shop, how may users of MC believe for one minute that any UK on-line retailer of LR parts isn't based in this country and isn't supplying 95% of it's clients in this country. Where you live in the UK becomes irrelevant when you shop on line, it's just taken for granted that a UK supplier is actually based in the UK and will dispatch goods to wherever you may live. The UK consumer is not sitting there thinking could this company be in Germany therefore do I really need to add VAT? Should your market actually involve export then I cannot see a logical reason for not having an export based website, running alongside your UK market. There any thousands of multinational web sites that offered tailored services out there, dependant on the country you live in.

The beauty of a retail shop is you get to meet your customers (potential and physical). Feedback is instant and upfront. On-line stores have no idea who is browsing and who is not. Any feedback you get is usually from those who have battled through and actually bothered to say something. For every one of those there must be hundreds if not thousands of 'viewers' who turn away in disgust and never leave any comment. I firmly believe constructive critisism works wonders to improve customer service / satisfaction. Anyone who doesn't listen is shooting themselves in their own foot. I also believe most internet surfers will make up their minds in 60 seconds or less whether they are comfortable or not browsing your website and whether the information they are looking for is obvious and easy to follow, this includes pricing.

Delivery is another matter and I agree this is a minefield, yet their are websites out their that supply our hobby who know exactly what each item weighs, collate items onto an order and give you the exact gross weight so they can calculate carriage. I agree it's not always possible to be acurate with 100% of all your stock but I bet you any money that if I phoned Devon4x4 and asked how much carriage is on a D44 winch bumper for my Disco they could tell me over the phone. That said carriage can be added pro-rata for a high percentage of deliveries regardless of what combination of items your order. Actually getting on-line retailers to display these carriage charges is a different matter.

It all boils down to communication and a lack of information, this breeds mistrust. Browsing and buying items without ever knowing how much you've actually spent until you hit the checkout button is off-putting and makes consumers nervous. I do it myself to checkout my competitors prices on-line. Some are upfront and you know exactly how much your order will cost delivered to your door, others go the longwinded route and leave it till the last minute of a checkout page. I've the confidence to do it as I know I can stop at the point I have to enter my personal details, but there's millions out there who never get past the "add to cart" button. Another customer lost !

As for reality not being so clear-cut, well I believe the consumer demands it to be clear cut. The reality aspect is not their problem, it's yours.

P.S. also having read this back over and had a cup of tea, I agree with V8moneypits complicated VAT system but that doesn't help the general public, I also think Tim has an answer in his reply (slightly covered by my comments above) Carriage is a nighmare but you still should give some indication to the consumer. If your system gets it right 99.99% of the time, how often do you lose out ? So why not display it ?

[drum]

We I used to sell CD-Media many many moons ago when it was actually worth doing, I had an online shop. The prices we're displayed inc\exc vat for every item. Every item also had a weight associated with it. Then the shopping cart displayed the shipping charges exactly for uk customers. We did originally have prices for other places, but found the few queries we got from abroad were either fraudlant or never materialised so we stopped.

We also displayed our shipping prices in "bands" by weight when entering the shop.

[muddyweb]

I would have to dissagree with you on your comment that most UK customers would rather see a net price rather than a gross price.

I made no such comment...   I said that I believed it was easier for people in the UK to understand their own VAT rules than for an overseas customer.

As for the freedom of choice as to where you shop, how may users of MC believe for one minute that any UK on-line retailer of LR parts isn't based in this country and isn't supplying 95% of it's clients in this country.

I wouldn't like to presume what the MC members believe.  But I do know a few of the companies who sell LR parts online quite well... and I have a fair idea of the proportion of export sales.

There any thousands of multinational web sites that offered tailored services out there, dependant on the country you live in.

True enough... but not everyone has Amazon or eBay's marketing budgets.

On-line stores have no idea who is browsing and who is not. Any feedback you get is usually from those who have battled through and actually bothered to say something. For every one of those there must be hundreds if not thousands of 'viewers' who turn away in disgust and never leave any comment.

Anonymously gathered web statistics actually give you quite a good idea of where your browsers come from, and what they looked at... and what products they looked at in what order...  that's arguably better than a retail environment.

I firmly believe constructive critisism works wonders to improve customer service / satisfaction. Anyone who doesn't listen is shooting themselves in their own foot.

Couldn't agree more..  which is precisely why I went and made some changes to our web shop immediately after having this discussion.

I agree it's not always possible to be acurate with 100% of all your stock but I bet you any money that if I phoned Devon4x4 and asked how much carriage is on a D44 winch bumper for my Disco they could tell me over the phone.

Yes, so can the D44 webshop.   What it can't do is make that human decision of knowing what you can and can't collate to reduce shipment costs... or at least, not without a massive amount of conditional programming.

Carriage is a nighmare but you still should give some indication to the consumer. If your system gets it right 99.99% of the time, how often do you lose out ? So why not display it ?

Um..  we do display it... but as I mentioned.. we cannot do so until the customer has told us where we are sending the item... and whether you believe it or not... 95% of our customers are not in the UK.

Is the system perfect ?  Of course not... but it is an ongoing development process as is any form of retail marketing.  Demands, regulations and responses will all change with time.

[drum]

Yes, so can the D44 webshop.   What it can't do is make that human decision of knowing what you can and can't collate to reduce shipment costs... or at least, not without a massive amount of conditional programming.

I'm curious but only cos I do alot of work with Parcel\Pallet companies.  :D  What is it you can't collate?? You should be charged by weight up to a certain size (i.e 1 pallet), then number of pallets. The only exception to this are some things I would imagine have to go on a pallet. And ofcourse there will be things that you are not meant to ship like lead acid batteries (but I'm guessing Optimas should be alright  :D

And ofcourse at the other end of the scale, you will probably have people that want one poly bush, so you probably have the set of bands for weight rather than a linear scale, then a switch over to a pallet, which is triggered either by weight or certain items been order.

Can you tell I've worked on these before  :D

[muddyweb]

I'm curious but only cos I do alot of work with Parcel\Pallet companies.  :D  What is it you can't collate??

I'll give you an example...    Someone buys an Optima Battery and a Discovery dashboard repair kit.

Now, I know that these two things need to go in separate boxes because if you pack them together you break one.   So, these get wrapped separately and we get charged accordingly by the carrier.

Someone buys a dashboard repair kit and a headlight bowl... these can be packed together and so the carriage is cheaper.

I know these things... I make an instant decision.


So.. in order to work out the consignment details, you have to work out :

Actual Weight
Volumetric Weight

Number of packages in the consignment based on :  

Individual item sizes
Individual item construction


You then need to make a decision about how to ship... will it be palletised, wil it go by TNT, Nightfreight, Post Office..  these choices are made on the above information and another human decision about which courier is least likely to break or lose the parts in question.  (Yes, this really is a factor)

As I say... a computer can be taught how to make these decisions... but it isn't a quick process.

[drum]

A lot of human customer struggle with Volumetic weights, but it is something computers, can judge instantly given the correct details. I  have to admit the system I've done in the past didn't make use of volumetrics, as the packages we're always heavier than there size. I assumed this would be the same for your kit, but I now I think about maybe not  :D

As for know which one is going to break something, I could tell you from the list you gave there. Work I did for a parcel sales force a while ago, used to keep records of the freight we were sending out with different couriers, and we used to have records of which couriers had problems with losses\damages in certain areas. Believe it or not we used to send empty\weighted power tools boxes, around the country, with photo paper in. If they got opened, or damaged the paper would get exposed to the light.  I would not be at all surprised by the amount of damage from certain customers, by far the worst went to the wall last year, but even so I'm not naming names.

[Mace]

I would have to dissagree with you on your comment that most UK customers would rather see a net price rather than a gross price.

I made no such comment...   I said that I believed it was easier for people in the UK to understand their own VAT rules than for an overseas customer.

Apologies, i now understand your original comment.

As for the freedom of choice as to where you shop, how may users of MC believe for one minute that any UK on-line retailer of LR parts isn't based in this country and isn't supplying 95% of it's clients in this country.

I wouldn't like to presume what the MC members believe.  But I do know a few of the companies who sell LR parts online quite well... and I have a fair idea of the proportion of export sales.

I'm sure you have a better idea than I do. I don't work in your field, it's my hobby and as such I'm a potential customer to any online LR parts supplier. Yours or anyone elses export market is of no interest to me when I'm shopping for products for myself. I just want to buy the product. I honestly had no idea that 95% of Devon4x4's business was export, why should I ? (and by the way I think that is a fantastic achievement) However, that has no bearing on whether I buy from you or not. It doesn't stop me from wanting to know how much things cost without having to get a calculator out whilst browsing.

On-line stores have no idea who is browsing and who is not. Any feedback you get is usually from those who have battled through and actually bothered to say something. For every one of those there must be hundreds if not thousands of 'viewers' who turn away in disgust and never leave any comment.

Anonymously gathered web statistics actually give you quite a good idea of where your browsers come from, and what they looked at... and what products they looked at in what order...  that's arguably better than a retail environment.

I stand corrected if you have the correct information on who is browsing and who is not but this is down to public perception. Gathering information about browsers doesn't instill confidence in an already wary general public. Anonymously gathering web stats doesn't tell you why the consumer didn't press the button though.

I firmly believe constructive critisism works wonders to improve customer service / satisfaction. Anyone who doesn't listen is shooting themselves in their own foot.

Couldn't agree more..  which is precisely why I went and made some changes to our web shop immediately after having this discussion.

It wasn't a personal dig, I was generalising  :D   I wish more retailers would do the same as you do.

Carriage is a nighmare but you still should give some indication to the consumer. If your system gets it right 99.99% of the time, how often do you lose out ? So why not display it ?

Um..  we do display it... but as I mentioned.. we cannot do so until the customer has told us where we are sending the item... and whether you believe it or not... 95% of our customers are not in the UK.

As I said before, good for you. But I can't pass comment on your webshop until I've seen it. As a UK customer buying goods from a UK supplier I still expect to know how much things cost before I buy. That was the basis of my comments. An inclusive of VAT price should be the norm for UK customers and an indication of carriage costs would be of great benefit for the UK consumer.

Each to their own Tim. I've got nothing against any particular company or their web site but I'm one of the paying, browsing consumers who get ever frustrated by on-line shopping. All of my comments apply to any on-line store in any retail sector. I've never bought a thing from Devon4x4 but I look forward to seeing your new webshop and if I feel comfortable using it I'll make a purchase. Simple as that. I'm Mr Joe Public and I'm not on my own.