A crushing blow

[Bob696]

that everyone has right to appeal against a vehicles confiscation

Having read the legislation on line everyone has the right to appeal but it can only be granted on the grounds of the car/bike having been stolen AND you took adequate precautions to stop it being stolen. I really would like someone to prove me wrong on that because 'assumed guilt' is a very worrying trend.

[Bulli]

I agree and an assumption of guilt is not the premise that uk law is based upon.
I can see your argument that until someone is proven guilty then they are by definition innocent. You also dont like the idea of someone being able to make that decision unchallenged, i also agree that is not good.
The problem is that the confiscation/crushing is a good thing but there is no way of having an adhoc trial when this arises and yes the police are making an assumption of guilt based on the facts as they present themselves.
The key checks are in place...ie people can produce their documents to prove the police wrong.This would stop the crushing etc...the main question still remains when is guilt apportioned? Is it when the person is stopped or when they fail to produce their documents?

[Bob696]

the main question still remains when is guilt apportioned? Is it when the person is stopped or when they fail to produce their documents?

Well with every other law of this land (as far as I know and certainly with all laws that predate this goverment) It is when a jury or magistrates say they are and not before

yes the police are making an assumption of guilt based on the facts as they present themselves.

More correctly as the police percieve them to be and as they understand them to be.

The key checks are in place

I disagree. There is no check of circumstances or of the policeman. Indeed, given that the police may sieze the car/bike upto 24 hours later from a locked premisies there isnt even a garentee that it is the right car/bike, just the policemans word. And lets face it, 1 green kmx looks pretty much like another.

[Bulli]

The fact that one green kmx looks like any other may be the exact reason for taking the bike at the time..... easy for someone to switch with a mates that is legit ......
so when is guilt arrived at with speeding? Unless you go to court you accept your guilt when you accept the points and fine.
So surely not producing your documents is admitting guilt. If i was stopped i could produce all my documents and would be glad to do so.

[Bob696]

The fact that one green kmx looks like any other may be the exact reason for taking the bike at the time..... easy for someone to switch with a mates that is legit ......

If they could only take the bike at the time of the offence then I would agree with your reasoning but the 24 hour rule is open to both missuse and honest mistakes.

So surely not producing your documents is admitting guilt.

No, not producing your documents is just that, not producing your documents. You COULD have the documents (and are therefore innocent) you just havent produced them. You are just asking in a round about sort of way for people to prove their innocence again.

Wouldnt section 152 be a whole lot fairer and in keeping with british justice system (not to mention the UN human rights stuff) if it worked the same way as speeding tickets?

[Skibum346]

Wouldnt section 152 be a whole lot fairer and in keeping with british justice system (not to mention the UN human rights stuff) if it worked the same way as speeding tickets?

Maybe.... go on....?

[Bob696]

With speeding tickets either camera or police officer. You are asked to accept the fixed penalty points and fine (in other words admit guilt). If you fail to accept them then you go up in front of the beak where you may or may not get a heavier penalty or even be found not guilty (although this is unlikely but did happen to the moped driver who was clocked at 58mph :lol:)

Simply put it is a true safety net where everything can be presented to the court.

[Bulli]

Bob,
i agree with the ethos but lets face it going to court over fixed penalty notice is like commiting suicide.
The magistrates look very unkindly on it and see it as wasting their time.

I once was stupid enough to do just that. I had photographic proof that the officers statement was not accurate....err still got the points(according to duty brief i was lucky???) but got 150 instead of 40 quid.
The photos were concrete evidence of the inaccurate nature of the officers statement. The only reason i wanted my day in court was because of the attitude of the officer. He was full of it and suffered short mans syndrome.
I dont see how this would benefit anyone. You are guilty as far as the beak is concerned.

[Bob696]

The photos were concrete evidence of the inaccurate nature of the officers statement. ................................ He was full of it and suffered short mans syndrome.

Isnt this EXACTLY why we should have GOOD safety nets in place.
Just imagine if an officer of that type KNEW you were never even going to get a chance in court.

In the case you mentioned I am sure you could have appealed the beaks decision and gone to a full jury. It only becomes pointless if you are "chancing your arm". The magistrate is just a link in a chain.