Road Charging ...

[datalas]

Now now now, I know that nobody here likes the idea, and to be honest I don't think it's ever going to happen anyhow however I thought it might be an interesting idea for us to list, discuss or at least giggle about the problems which the scheme will undoubtedly create, as well as how it's supposed to effectively address them anyhow.

Please note try to put aside the arguments that the principle is rather laughable and is probably just a case of fulfilling a desire to be seen to be doing something, regardless of what that something is ..

To open the gambit ..


1) How are the road charges going to be calculated, and how often are they going to be reviewed ?

To make it clear what I mean by this, the system is apparently based (at least partially) on GPS technology so it to me makes sense that it will probably be countered by the same.  To elucidate, say the scheme has a fantastic effect and the cost of £9 a meter on the m25 halves the amount of traffic on the road at any one given time,  most of the traffic in question will have most likely filtered out onto less expensive tributary roads, which by all accounts will now be congested to beggery.  The GPS using community are likely to work out how to hit the "divert" button, especially on expensive roads.   When does the charge get reviewed so that it's now cheaper to drive on the m25, but jolly expensive to bypass it ?


2) The scheme is being hailed as "Pay as you go" however, is this really the case ?

Well, again, I'd argue that it rather pointedly isn't "pay as you go".  Assuming that a driver cannot be realistically expected to declare a journey prior to making it then there are only two options (that I can see) left available.   The first is that somehow the vehicle tracking doohick (VTD) would have to work on some form of pre pay scheme and charge you as you turn onto each road, or for each mile, like a taxi ... or ... you'd have to be sent a bill at some point at the end of the journey, or month, as is applicable.   Is that really "pay as you go?"  surely that's pay as you went ?


3)  How are drivers going to be informed of the costs they are incurring?  

Since I drive into work on a daily basis, I can, if I were honest be expected to be under a reasonable impression of the costs of roads as I drive down them,  I know which roads are congested, which aren't so I can probably keep a mental track of the potential costs incurred.  But, this doesn't apply when I go outside of my field of knowledge,  am I going to suddenly discover that I inadvertently ran up a £300 bill when I went to tescos at billing?   Or are we going to paste the costs at the side of the road ?  


4)  How are "congested" roads defined ?

Each morning I drive past a 12 mile traffic jam, on the other side of the motorway, going the other direction ...  Does that mean I'm driving down a congested road ? ... Road, yes,  carriage way, no...  What charge does that incur ?


5)  Does this actually address the problem ?

Well, considering that the governments primary rhetoric is that all roads are congested then simply charging people more to drive down the ones which have it worst is unlikely I would have thought to present them with an alternative.  The only thing it might serve to achieve is to price people out of their cars and onto public transport, but with the crumbling transport infrastructure it's just as likely to force them out of their homes or jobs.



6) Does the new scheme actually encourage bad behaviour ?

This is possibly going out on a limb, but still worth mentioning.  At the moment we're charged by the gallon,  fuel use is not directly linked to congestion, nor the distance travelled, in so much as a stationary car with the engine running is still using fuel.  In the current scheme a vehicle stuck in stationary traffic still pays for the "carbon damage" it is doing, by means of taxing the fuel it's burning,  unless the driver switches the engine off.

Assuming that the fuel levy is reduced in the new scheme (one heck of an assumption I know) then this behaviour is no longer encouraged,  why bother to switch the engine off since I'm being charged per mile, and I'm not doing any ? ...



Anyhow, I think that's enough for now,  I'm sure other people have other ideas,  as I say, I just wanted a list of points both for and against the new scheme to encourage intellectual debate,  please try to camouflage any political bias ;)

[sleeplessparadise]

We were discussing this on the way home last night after a late night recovery expedition.

Now although we drove approx 3 miles from someones house to the place where our friend was stuck.... only about 1 mile of that was actual road (the rest being a rocky track up to a quarry) so would we be charged for the 2 miles that were not on actual road by that I mean not looked after, resurfaced or maintained in anyway by the local council  :(

If they were to make us all buy a tracking device ...... surely this would end car theft cos I mean what would be the point.... they would know where you are....... but then again if someone did steal your car would you then be liable to pay for the mileage they have driven in your vehicle :shock:

If they did away with road tax and fuel duty as they claim on the news then some people could find them selves a lot better off.  ie if you have 4 vehicles obviously you can only drive one or two of them at once depending on number of drivers in the house so you wouldnt be paying road tax on a vehicle that is sat on your drive just on the off chance that you may use it once or twice this year :?

At the moment the amount of mileage you drive has some sort of effect on the insurance premium you pay so if they can track how far you are driving and also whether or not you are prone to speeding etc. would your car insurance change accordingly and would this mean the muppets that actually cause most of the accidents by careless driving actually start paying instead of the normal careful driver :?:

Cant think of anything else at the moment but I am sure there are lots of things I missed :lol:

[Horness]

If, like they say Road Tax and Fuel Duty will be scrapped, and on top of this any GPS device which I am forced to buy/fit can also be used as a tracking device to locate my vehicle in the event of theft, then so be it.

I would also expect a reduction in my insurance for this, as I effectively have a "tracker", and also have an accurate measure of my annual mileage.

I really don't see however how this will improve things.  With the seemingly never ending rise in Road Tax and fuel costs, people are still using their cars over public transport (or even car sharing).
The effort should go into making a successful, reliable public transport system which people know they can rely on.  Then scrap Road Tax, and add a penny or two to Fuel.  This way, if you use public transport, you're not paying for you car to sit on the drive.  If you drive, the more miles you do, the more you will have paid on the fuel to go towards maintaining the roads.

With Road Tax and fuel, it costs me £40 a week to travel to and from work.  I'm lucky however, I live and work in the same town.  Many people in this day-and-age do not, and can not rely on public transport to get them to work and back home again on time, and at regular intervals.  If I had the choice of using another system, and saving some money, then obviously I'm going to use it.

Any new system such as this is also open to abuse, from both sides.  People developing systems to find not only the quickest and shortest routes, but also the cheapest.  Villages being swamped with reps trying to avoid expensive roads, driving up the possibility of RTA's etc.
Abuse also from those controlling it.  Once in and accepted, like the fuel they can set the rates and the roads, and there is no way out.  Once all the money floods in from this system, where will it go?  Developing more lanes on motorways to allow more traffic to travel, to allow more money to come in, instead of developing the alternative to allow people to leave their cars at home.

Once again the solution focuses on getting more money from the public, instead of providing them with a solution.

[Sooty]

There is one point that springs to mind, if they are going to use the GPS system to track vehicles then correct me if I am wrong this is a passive system and therefore every vehicle will need to be driven to a download facility every month so the DCU (data capture unit) can be interrogated.
First question is "do you have to pay for that journey" I would suspect the answer is yes.
Second question " what is going to stop you from removing the DCU on some of the journeys you make and leaving it on you drive".
Third question "if a car is not MOTed then you can't take it to be down loaded even if it has not gone any ware so will you be fined for not getting it downloaded".
Fourth question "What is going to stop you cloning a unit and therefore charging an unknown third party".
If this happens to you how can you prove you didn't make that journey (you can't prove a negative).
There are many questions that need to be asked and someone needs to ask them publicly (anyone on MC work for a national paper?)
The bottom line is it isn't going to work but that won't stop them wasting millions of tax payers money setting it up to watch it fail (another pole tax fiasco)
Think that is enough from me, I could go on for weeks.

[datalas]

A series of valid questions from sooty...

According to a police think tank, which was waxing lyrical about number plate recognition and vehicle tracking systems they were visualising a system which would have the ability to centrally track vehicles, which would at least tie in with the new road scheme,  as sooty pointed out there are a number of issues with not having a centralised tracking system.

Now, the european union are considering adding vehicle tracking systems to all new build cars (they stated that the overhead for retrofitting them would be impractical),  which raises a couple of other possibilities.  Could the system be interactive ?  they have stated that there is a likelyhood that new vehicles will be fitted with a speed governor .. you could theoretically change the limitations depending upon the road you're on ;)  That report also hypothesises that it would be possible in the event of a murder to simply summons all people who were provably in the area at the time (this seems to overlook the niggle that it proves their cars were in the area and not them)

Anyhow, that is possibly not one of the biggest concerns, I have deliberately avoided the privacy concerns with the new scheme if only because loss of liberty is hard to quantify,  however,  I do like the conflict of terminology which the government have used,  statements such as "there will be no tracking of people so privacy isn't a problem" don't mesh well against "safeguards will be put in place",  if they're not tracking you and there are no privacy concerns, why do you need safeguards in place ?

[Budgie]

It'll be interesting to see the type of GPS they are thinking of using as, I don't know about your GPS but, my GPS looses signals in built-up or wooded areas and what about tunnels?
This system would need to be 100% reliable for it to work.

What about visitors to this country?
Will they be fitted with a tracker when they get off the ferry and charged before they get back on it?

What happens to us islanders when we travel on the ferry to the mainland?
The tracker will switch off in Stornoway when you drive onto the ferry and then activate again when you get off, 50 miles away. Will this show as a deception because the vehicle has moved but not been tracked?

Also, they've got us up here as there's only 1 road that'll get us to Inverness from the ferry, unless you fancy a really large detour.
The A9 is, again, the only road South from Inverness and is thus congested so they have the North of Scotland by the short & curlys as there is no option but to drive on these roads. We could fly (more emissions) or go by train (more expensive, at the moment) but this would take away your transport when you reach your detination.  :?

[datalas]

Which raises another valid question...

When does the system activate ?  is it when the engine is running or is it permanently running,  would it cover a vehicle which is being towed or trailered ?  (I suspect the answer is with the ignition, which still begs the question about vehicles being towed)

presumably if they don't go the GPS route than the intention would be to use ANPR to simply charge you per mile on a congested route, which is either going to be very costly in ANPRs, or limited to motorways ..   Alternatively it's all an excuse for giving you a £5 fine everytime you go past a gatso

[dazzawhipple]

I do actually think this may well happen

But I drive 50 miles each way to work using the A43, M40 and A34 between the hours 6.30 -8.15 and 4.30 -6

So you could say at peak time for example if this was charged at £1 a mile it so it becomes non viable method of getting to work (£100 per day!!!)... the other option is public transport

First bus to Oxford is 6 am takes 1.5 hours and presently costs £15 return I then need to get the train to place of employment which is £5 each way will not get me to work until 8.30 (I start at 8.15) then reverse In real terms I will not make it back through the door until 6.30 ish by that time the kids are well on there way getting ready for bed

or

Get a local room to rent and stay local to work for the week!!!! £70-100 per week plus meals

So because of proposed government policy I may have to endure

1 Public transport at the mercy of hoddies
2 Don’t see the kids until weekends
3 Run two homes

The numpty that thought this up needs to be shot

[bigfatsi]

I have to travel from Teesside to Gateshead every day, a round trip of around 60 miles. This is almost entirely on the A1 and also through it's most congested point. I'm guessing that I'm gonna be hit pretty hard. I also know that as things stand I could not afford to pay any extra in charges. I'm fairly sure that there's plenty of others out there who are in a similiar position. So what happens then...?

[07DefenderSeb]

Why not toll all motorways like in France and scrap the Road Tax? The standard of the roads in France is considerably higher, and they have more than twice the land mass than the UK and roughly the same population.

The tracking system is really quite far fetched, and does really have a smell of 1984 about it  :roll:

As for the polution factor - taxing motorists doesn't reduce polution/emissions. Tighter emission laws does. Surely it's down to industry to pull its weight and lead the way now?

[datalas]

Well, debates about the "real" story about this potential legeslation could go on for days, and I was kinda trying to shy away from it since I'd like to compile a list of "real" problems to the scheme,  especially the technical and logistical implications of it.

Personally I think we're just going to sink a ton of cash into a "pilot" scheme before determining that it's unworkable and introduce a 30p price hike on petrol and a toll system for all motorways,  at which point we'll all breath a huge sigh of relief as we're only paying double what we are now, and not the thrice the press have been suggesting ...

I.e.  Smokescreen ..    

However,  back to the debate at hand..

[Sooty]

You are spot on the Daz, smoke screen it is, tell you that the price is going to £50 from £20 to drive to work and the when you throw your toy out the pram tell you they understand the problem and reduce it from £50 to £30 you think you have won the debate. WRONG you just lost the debate to the sum of £10.
Let’s face facts, there is only two reasons a government makes a decision in the country, to make money or win votes.
This will not win votes so draw your own conclusion.

[Range Rover Blues]

It ignores the fact that monitoring where and when I go is an infringement of my civil liberty, for this reason those average speed cameras were held up for about 2 years.

[Edge]

I'm looking forward to emigrating more and more each day
Sorry for the intrude...Back to the subject....

[Edge]

Am i mistaken?... or do we already have a pay as you go tax?
Fuel Tax