Is it worth welding ?

[lyndon]

I have decided to keep hold of my 200 tdi and want to convert it into a fishing wagon with a bit of a mod in the rear to put all my bits and pieces in.

My intention is to give her a coat of paint with a roller and fit a snorkel. However today I ripped the carpet up in the back and yes the rear floor has been replaced however I have found a couple of rust holes. One about 2 inches long next to the nearside wheel arch between the arch and the new floor panel in the small strip of body there. And two others one either side of the rear in the very corners where the wheel arch meets the floor and side walls. They are the same on both sides and about 2 inches square. I havn't pulled any of the other carpets yet.

The question is can these be welded, and if so how much am I looking at to get it done ?. How hard is welding could I teach myself to do it ?.

The other point is that the gears are getting sticky. 3rd is difficult to select occasionally and now first is really crunching. I have been told it might be the clutch, but I am worried its the gear box.

Now I guess this is eventually going to be a question only I can answer, but some educated comments wouldn't go amiss. She is a 1989 G reg one of the original 3 door blue Discos. I personally love the thing, but I have to look at it from a fiscal point of view. Is this worth getting the inside and outside of the body all welded up and painted and undersealed and having both the gear box and clutch done. I guess I am looking at at least £1000 for that probably more. The saving grace is the engine has been rebuilt in recent years and so should not let me down.

Comments please, do I get rid and replace her with something a little newer, or spend the cash. What would you do ?.

[hobbit]

Welding is not hard to learn, got a good motor to practice on
You will need a mig welder though, an arc will just give you more holes


Try an oil change on the gearbox, might help ease the wear in the box

[lyndon]

Thanks for that info. I was wondering about that. I have already changed the oil in it and it made no difference. Might try a synthetic oil next.

[Leslie Henson]

You will need a mig welder though

Tsk! I beg to differ    I gas weld, self taught, and I like to think I'm reasonably good at it.



Practise is everything, whatever type you choose. It just depends if you feel that spending £200 or more on welding gear is worth it.

Les. :)

[hobbit]

True gas is best, but working round a plastic fuel tank, mig is safer unless you do a strip out, heat is a swine when you have a lot of underseal around, and cost for oxy gear is a lot more

Mig is a cheaper option, I like using gas myself, just depends on your setup

[hairyasswelder]

sorry to throw a spanner in, BUT.... I thought gas welding was no longer acceptable for repairs to structural parts of the vehicle come mot time  :?
Especially the chassis  :?
Mig is a more convenient, easier method and unless you are trade or can show HSE that you can store gas bottles properly you will struggle to get an account to refill them  
before anything is said I can, and have papers to weld with gas MMA MIG and TIG,  :D

Steve

Also the MIG is cheaper  :D in the long run

[Leslie Henson]

I have an account with BOC, the local council and fire station know the gases I have and where they are stored, I have the required safety equipment, such as flash back arrestors and directional flow valves, Co2 and water fire extinguishers. The cylinders are kep 80-feet from my/any private residence on non-business premises. Been that way for years now with no problems thus far. Bit worrying now from what you have just said. As for welding vehicles - I take it you are referring to the alteration of the structure of the metal through welding? Well as far as I'm aware there is no problem welding a vehicle using gas and I have done hundreds of times. I freelance for three garages, which sometimes includes welding, and these garages are aware of my welding method. Of course, monocoques chassis vehicles makes the difference between bodywork and chassis is a grey area in some circumstances. I understand that the properties of a weld are much the same - that of cast iron?, so I would suggest that a Mig weld repair would have the same or very similar properties as gas welded repairs.


Les.

[lyndon]

So how much would I be looking at to get these holes repaired ?. I need to make a decision as to whether is going to be worth it.

[Leslie Henson]

Very difficult to say without seeing the damage, some welders will charge a fortune, but others can be quite reasonable. Preparation is the longest part of any welding job - things catch fire very quickly. Best to get a few quotes and go from there. It might also be worth your while to do the preparation yourself.


Les.

[lyndon]

What has to be done to prepare it. I have already removed all the carpet and plastic furniture ?. I took it to a local garage who I have known for years and they quoted me £120, they normally knock 25% off that for me. Doesn't seem so bad, but as the owner was saying if I went out and bought a cheap little mig welder it would pay for its self with just these jobs and then I can just patch her up as I go.

What I would like to do is strip her out and sort out all the rust and then paint her floor and underside. But I am not sure whether its worth it ?. With regards to the clutch and gear box is there anyway of telling which is going?. The guy at the garage seemed to think it sounds like the clutch as 3rds been clunky for a whilde and now 1st is occasionally crunchy.

List of things to do as I see them at the minute -

1. sort out the rust inside, outside and under the bonnet
2. Sort out crunchy gears, either gearbox or clutch or maybe do both
3. Replace rear door hinges as she is a cow to shut
4. Look at power steering. It works fine after the first 150 yards or if        leave her to idle for a while.
5. She smokes a bit on sarting ( I can live with this as long as its not a symptom of something more sinister)
6. She is a bit sluggish when she starts off but when warm lovely (Again I can live with it as long as its nothing sinister)
7. Fit snorkel
8. new paint job (hand rollered)

Is it worth the hassle or should I get myself a newer landy?.

[cardiff_gareth]

I have just bought a cosmo welder, gas/gasless mig welder. Got it through Ebay but they now sell them through B&Q.
Not the best write up but its done me good and didn't falter on me once.  You can get them for about £150.
If you get the same one I have, I'll give you the settings  

[lyndon]

Cheers mate. Now to charm the wife !

[Landynuts]

I would get the clutch/gearbox sorted, once that's done you can sort the rest as a rolling restoration whilst teaching yourself welding.

[spy]

I went to college to do a welding and fabrication course.  Mig welding is really about practice.  I learnt enough in an hour to teach myself with practice.  Maybe get a mig and get someone to show you?  

As for the money, take a look at the value of old discos on ebay.  You may be able to buy a better one for a grand than the one you have and sell yours.  

It might be a case of better the devil you know though?  

Cheers,

Mike

[clbarclay]

so I would suggest that a Mig weld repair would have the same or very similar properties as gas welded repairs.

I can't find the website right now and have sills to get back to, but as i understand it oxy-acetaline welding can incoroperate oxygen from the atmospere into the weld (making it weaker) compared to MIG/TIG/MMA which produce inert gas sheilds around the weld preventing the oxygen entering the weld.

Plus there are other diferances like electric welding is done at much higher temperatures, temperature spread....  etc. etc.

The in a nut shell the welding processis are not necisserily the same.

[cardiff_gareth]

The floor is not a structual part of the body so not required for an MOT, I have just changed my floor, hence the welder settings. If I was you then I'd leave it til last and concerntrate on the other parts which are more life threatening for a better phrase.
What level is the oil in the gearbox, seems daft but you never know, as stated, a change of oil can help wonders, are all gears hard to find as could be the selector plate in the top of the gearbox ?

Get an angle grinder with a grinding disc - I take it under the bonnet would be inner wings which are a swine to do, you need to remove the underseal as this is what catches fire when welding. Make your plates up with some sheet steel and then place them over the metal to be welded to. Draw around them and then angle grind both sides of the metal with the grinding disc to remove the paint and also the underseal. This then makes a better weld and also stops things catching fire.
I personaly would remove all rotten metal, make the plates up and treat the old metal with rust stopper before welding on new plates, paint on seam sealer followed by hammerite and finish with waxoil, that ain't never gonna rust again !
Oh yeah, disconnect the battery before you start

[Leslie Henson]

I spoke to 2 MOT testers today and also posted on the MOT testers website. All so far have said that there is no restriction (or even mention) of gas welding being used to repair a body or chassis on a vehicle. The only comments were 'we have to pass some s***t welding done by any method - gas is not a woryy, just that the job is done properly. Perhaps those of you that have said that gas welding is not satisfactory for the MOT could say where you got this information from please?


Les.

[Tyke]

Ok . . . . so what's mig and tig if not a form of gas welding . . . . . I know the gasses are just used for shielding but I can't for the life of me see a problem with oxy-acet . . . . . if done well and properly.



Anyway, most of the Disco body is non-stuctural, so corrosion shouldn't be a major issue for mot. All down the testers 'discretion'. . . . and their desire to screw you for a load of welding that may actually be, technicaly, unnecessary



If body mounts and seat belt anchors are sound the Disco should pass mot . . . . even with great big holes in the sills and floor . . . .  :lol:

[Tyke]

as i understand it oxy-acetaline welding can incoroperate oxygen from the atmospere into the weld (making it weaker) compared to MIG/TIG/MMA which produce inert gas sheilds around the weld preventing the oxygen entering the weld.

And while were at it . . . . we are dealing with low carbon steels on vehicle bodywork that do not react to heat in the same way as higher carbon structural steels.   The main issue is with the change in structure of the material, due to heat,  which can result in brittleness and subsequent 'stress corrosion' in the 'heat affected zone' . . .  HAZ to those who understand.

Generaly these effects are of no significance on a typical body panel as the material is seleced for it's ductility and structural strength is imparted to the panel during the bending and forming processes during manufacture. Application of heat, during welding, does not change the materials structure as the carbon content is too low. It may cause local annealing of the material, however, but this is somwhat less of a problem than local hardening . . . which can cause stress boundary failure on some steels due to the development of cracks caused through fatigue. This is often found along the boundary of the base metal and the HAZ and is the result of welding a medium/high carbon steel at too high a temperature . . . . vehicle body panels don't fall into this bracket of material.


To be perfectly blunt about it . . . . most vehicle welders i've ever spoken to don't have a clue about such things and which welding process and the critical temperatures to choose for a given steel or other material . . . . but hey . . . . that's what happens when you don't have the background knowledge . . . . then they sting your wallet . . . . especialy if mot's are involved :x

[waveydavey]

The fact is that a gas weld done 100% properly is much better than any sort of electric weld but there are problems:

1; gas has a size limit for the parent metal (not a problem on vehicles but you can't weld 50mm thick steel plate with gas.

2; it's much easier to get gas wrong, especially compared to MIG.

With electric welding you have a very small 'hot area' which inevitably cools fast and will induce stresses. With gas you heat a greater area and control the cooling.

Mig is easiest to learn and certainly best for a home user but for vehicle welding there is nothing to beat a good gas welder (not me!).

[muddyjames]

Well Lyndon I will let you into a possibly useful secret.

I have noticed you live in Tadley. If I were you I would pop down to the 4x4withoutaclub off road day on the right hand side going towards Aldermaston. It is in the set of woods just after the bomb shop, sorry, AWE fencing ends. They hold events every 2nd sunday in the month. Go there and look for a guy called Ian. He has a red swb series 3. He normall trailers it there and has a little kid that loves to scream alot as they go round.

I bought his rangie off of him a few years back and he does welding for a living. He even welded up an ally roof rack for the rangie. If you see him and say I mentioned you (Im James if you havent guessed yet ) and he maybe able to do the welding for you.

If that fails another guy I know who does a good job welding and loves to get his welder out when he can is Matt_h . Maybe drop him a pm. He is only over in Chineham. He is a top bloke. He did my boot floor for me in a weekend.

There is 2 options for you.

I have similar scenario to you as my rover 620 had an engine rebuild a few years back but gearbox crunches sometimes and there is a rust hole that will only get bigger and a few other spots about that will need attention soon. Do I sell it (worth £50) or keep it (better the devil you know!) Im keeping it for now as it is reliable (touch lots of wood) and cheap to run.

good luck on what ever you do.

[winchman]

Gas is fab, you can weld poor metals, and its very controlable, but I have been doing it a long time, for a beginner forget it with out some tuition.
Mig is the best for DIY, cheap easy but the parent metal must be very clean, I have seen very good looking welds fail as the weld is just sat on top of the metal with almost no penetration.
As Spy said, get to the college or some one to show you, its not hard.
Good luck

[Tyke]

With gas you heat a greater area and control the cooling

Long live the gas revolution . . . . . but it takes 'proper' skill . . . . as does good tig . . . . . and mig is deffo the easiest to diy . . . .  





Lyndon mate . . . . James has found you a solution  

[waveydavey]

With gas you heat a greater area and control the cooling

Long live the gas revolution . . . . . but it takes 'proper' skill . . . . as does good tig . . . . . and mig is deffo the easiest to diy . . . .

Exactly what I said; Mig is easiest for the DIYer to get a decent job. Tig is serious practice to get right.

Mind you although I can join metal using most heat based systems (I hesitate to call what I do welding) I still beleive in getting an expert to do it if it's structual.

Defenition of an Expert?
Ex = Has Been
Spurt = Drip under pressure

[lyndon]

Thansk for all the helpful advice gents. James thanks for the tips I will have a look into it. I have a freind also a Landy nut who I know can weld. So a I have asked him to show me the ropes. How ever I am still working on the missis hoping to fund a new Landy.

Cheers

[nickW]

these are good websites

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/

http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/acatalog/Welding_Rods_Wire_and_Gas.html

[Range Rover Blues]

To answert teh original question I would simply ask this,  What will yoou get fot eh £1,000 it might cost to repair, and how soon will the replacement itself need cash throwing at it?

If the truck is in good running order, and you are attached to it, keep it going.

Better the devil you know

[lyndon]

I think your right. I will probably keep her going. Another question. I have now sourced a mate who is going to help my weld it. What sort of metal do I need to get to patch it. How thick does it need to be?

[Range Rover Blues]

If it's structural then as thick or thicker than original.

UNless your mate is a good welder I would sugest buying 0.9 to 1.2 mm sheet steel for the floors and 1.2 to 1.5mm for any box sections.  Possibly 2-3mm on the chassis.

DO NOT BUY GALVANISED STEEL or any form of treated steel.  DO NOT paint it.

IIRC, (and I may have got this wrong once before)

Xylene decaying in an electric arc makes Phosgene gas AKA mustard gas, so no Hamerite

Zinc does somehting nasty too, very nasty but I don't recall what (I think before I said it was mustard gas, but I would have been wrong.  It's still bad s*** though).

[gav]

just a suggestion.

but you can buy a boot floor for 60 quid from padd etc.

I have also decided to repair my boot floor. but at the moment i have just cut and welded in plates to get me back on the road, if the cars upto it ill put a new floor in it at some point.

welding zinc/galvo gives off cancerous fumes.