Welcome to the nanny state

[Bob696]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13255792,00.html


 :roll:

[pritch]

I'm sure my brother would be delighted by that!

(Mind, he's got his own electrical business, so I guess he's biased)

[Wanderer]

     

I get angrier and angrier everyday at the crap that's being spouted.
10 people a year are killed by botched wiring and we need legislation to sort it out?
Where's the baby? Whoops it was in the bathwater we've just, yet again, thrown out.

Ed

[pritch]

     

I get angrier and angrier everyday at the crap that's being spouted.
10 people a year are killed by botched wiring and we need legislation to sort it out?
Where's the baby? Whoops it was in the bathwater we've just, yet again, thrown out.

Ed

I think the next step is to introduce legislation that says you have to get a trained person to help you cross the road*.

*especially with all those nasty 4x4 drivers about

[Horness]

New building regulations coming into effect on New Year's Day will restrict DIY enthusiasts' right to carry out electrical work in their own homes, it has been confirmed.  

Any significant electrical work particularly in the kitchen, bathroom or garden will have to be carried out by a qualified and registered electrician

They've got more chance of me letting Michael Barrymore give me an enema than letting a bunch of cowboy sparks straight out of college into my house to wire a bloody plug.

Deputy PM John Prescott's Office is planning a campaign to publicise the regulations.   Home Secretary David Blunkett has been appointed in charge of Quality for this regulation, personally visiting each site to give it the once over before sign off.

[Moose]

I bet if it does come to law, they will give all the freebooters a sparky for free.

We will end up paying twice. :!:

[Duncan Brown]

HELP

A light bulb has just gone pop in the kitchen

WHAT THE HECK DO I DO ??????

[Wanderer]

Move the sink and cooker into the living room.
So that the living room is now the kitchen and then change the bulb and then move it all back again.

It shows how much thought has gone into it. It only takes a competent person to do their own gas pipes which can cause a lot more harm.

Ed

[Duncan Brown]

Thanks mate I knew there would be a simple solution

we're dooomed

[god bless Mr Blair and the EC ]

[muddyweb]

In an uncharacteristic defence of something like this.......

They are not looking to introduce rules to stop you wiring a plug or changing a lamp, or even work on ring mains or spurs....   they are looking to insist on a Test & Inspection by a qualified electrician of work carried out in certain circumstances.

Having worked in an around all manner of electrical installation for a good chunk of my working life (mostly entertainment systems as opposed to domestic it has to be said), I wish they had introduced something a long time ago.  

That said, it is going to be VERY hard to regulate and enforce any such ruling...  If I stick a new spur in the kitchen, who is to say it wasn't installed by the electrician who installed the initial wiring.  

The only way to enforce it would be to insist on regular T&I of all domestic installations each year in the same way they do for commercial premises...   and I'm not sure there are enough electricians in the country to do that !!

Anyone who knows me will tell you that I am pretty much as anti-nanny state as you can get... but I think there is a degree of sense in this

[Bob696]

"It won't apply to repairs to power-points or putting spurs onto a circuit, unless you are working in the kitchen or bathroom area or outdoors, because electricity and water don't mix."  

Direct quote of Mr Hope. They ARE trying to price you out of working on electrics in your kitchen/bathroom.

But I agree, it is uninforcable. So why are they wasteing our tax money introducing it and the quango to oversee it (oooppppsss may have hit the nail on the bonce there)

[muddyweb]

Direct quote of Mr Hope. They ARE trying to price you out of working on electrics in your kitchen/bathroom

No... they are trying to make sure that some Numpty who has watched changing rooms doesn't kill themselves, someone else, burn something down, or just cause a lot of inconvenience for their neigbours.  It is shocking what some people consider to be "acceptable".     And again, you can do the work, but it needs to be tested by someone qualified.  

We all accept an MOT each year, because it has to do with our, and other people's safety.....

[pritch]

Whilst I was initially against the idea (for selfish purposes, I must admit), I can see Tim's point of view here.  I've spent some time working for an electrical contractor as a labourer for a bit, and some of the DIY stuff I saw was awful.

The thing about kitchens and bathrooms is that there are so many regulations to follow with regard to electical safety, that it's somewhat unreasonable to expect the average homeowner to keep up with them.  For instance, did you know that your kitchen sink (not just the pipework, the sink itself) needs to be connected to an electrical earth?

The other day I had the pleasure of spotting a kitchen in which all the water pipes were earth bonded, but some numpty had gone and bonded the gas pipe as well. [-X

[Bob696]

It is 10 deaths a year of people who are probably better off out the gene pool (Peanuts kill an average of 15 a year btw). They could probably save more lives by banning ladders over 6ft.

This argument is running dangerously close to "but 10 deaths a year is too many and could be so easly prevented", just like some of the arguments against 4x4s.

At what point do you say the inconviniance to many (and the cost to everyone) is worth the life of an idiot?  If you decide that it is 10 per year then cars in general are in a whole heap of trouble as are rollerskates, skis, peanuts, pushbikes, buses and probably even the computer you are sat at now.

Ten deaths a year from a population of 60 million is nothing.

[muddysteve]

The other day I had the pleasure of spotting a kitchen in which all the water pipes were earth bonded, but some numpty had gone and bonded the gas pipe as well.

Hmmm unless the regs have changed drastically in the last 2 years gas pipes have to be bonded aswell as the water pipes.

I think that these regulations are a great idea because lets face it electrics in your bathroom, nasty combination water and 240v, i've seen a normal 13 amp socket mounted on a bath panel so a bubble thingy could be used in the bath, how no one got fried in that bath is beyond me

just my 2p

Steve

[muddyweb]

It is 10 deaths a year of people who are probably better off out the gene pool (Peanuts kill an average of 15 a year btw). They could probably save more lives by banning ladders over 6ft.

And what if one of those deaths is a 5 year old child who touches a badly earthed metal sink ?    Is our gene pool better off ?   You can play with rhetorical argument all day, and still not prove anything.

At what point do you say the inconviniance to many (and the cost to everyone) is worth the life of an idiot?  

Not sure I understand the question...  but I geniuninely hope that you or someone you care about is injured by someone's bad electrical installation.  

If you decide that it is 10 per year then cars in general are in a whole heap of trouble as are rollerskates, skis, peanuts, pushbikes, buses and probably even the computer you are sat at now.

But cars, food, toys, and consumer electronics are *already* covered by plenty of legislation to make them as safe as possible.   We all accept the CE regulations which help to prevent accidents through poorly manufactured goods.

More to the point, when somebody makes a poor job of electrical installation, it's not just about hurting yourself.  It's about the potential for risk to others too.

Ten deaths a year from a population of 60 million is nothing.

I'll be sure to pass that message on to their families.   :?

[Bob696]

At what point do you say the inconviniance to many (and the cost to everyone) is worth the life of an idiot?

Try this annolgy then

A salesman in his mondeo pulls out at a junction and I smash into the side of him with my D90. He dies. There is legislation introduced to ban 4x4s moving at more than 10mph in an urban area so that idiots like this are protected from themselves.

or there is the parent that dosnt supervise their 5 year old on a busy road, IF the 5 year old survives then they will do exactly the same when they have kids of their own.

More to the point, when somebody makes a poor job of electrical installation, it's not just about hurting yourself. It's about the potential for risk to others too.

In most cases (9 out of the 10?) it will be members of their own family and the point comes back to the gene pool again.

At this moment in time I am REALLY hacked off with the goverment treating me like a complete idiot so they can protect the real idiots out there from themselves.

This IS different from protecting the public from shoddy merchandise/services. It is about protecting you from yourself.
Lets ban ladders so idiots who dont chok the bottoms arnt hurt, lets ban skateboards so children with no sense of balance arnt hurt, lets ban peanuts so that people with allergies who cant be bothered to read the lables arnt hurt.


WHY should I care about an incompetent DIYers family and WHY should I have to pay more to protect them? WHY should I be inconvenianced and out of pocket to save an idiot and/or his family? Its his family, if he wants to cut a few corners to save a few quid why should we interfere with legislation? He will ignore it anyway and the 'law abiding citizens" will have to foot the bill for observing it.

[Range Rover Blues]

Do you know what anoys me the most about this?
I don't have the best opinion of 'professional tradesmen', some are good, granted, but some are bad.  The guy on the credit card advert, "they pay me to tell them", you know the one.

The guy who rewired next door to my dad's house, a qualified electrician but what a cretin!  I wouldn't trust him to watch paint dry and yet he is qualified to sign off an electrical instalation.

And how come we got no warning of this coming? another back door, nanny state, peice of C**P from the labour party.  I did hear talk that we will ALL have to have a thermostatic tap in our bathrooms soon to prevent people sticking their babies into boiling bathwater!

How about having an exam for people who want to have babies, let's put the responsibility on making sure the parents are up to the job rather than assuming we are all idiots and reducing things to the lowest common denominator!

Maybe electricians will become the new plumbers, attracting all those graduates that can't get a job!

[muddyweb]

I think this is being blown WAY out of proportion.

The suggested legislation says that an electrical installation in certain conditions should be carried out by a qualified electrician or should be checked by a qualified electician.

If you disagree with this, how do you feel about the MOT test ?

The MOT test is designed to ensure that a vehicle, at least once a year, complies with a set of requirements designed to keep them roadworthy.

If, in your example, the Mondeo had bad brakes because his 'mate who knows about cars' did some work for him, and there was no test to make sure they worked properly, then the emphasis on blame / responsibility changes somewhat.

Commercial properties have to go through a similar set of tests of their electrical safety, once a year, to ensure that public health is protected.

Will accidents happen ?  Yes, of course.  Because of that, should we walk away from testing, because it isn't 100% effective ?  Not in my opinion.

The VAST majority of people in this country don't have the faintest idea how domestic wiring works, how different installation practices can affect the capability of the components.... does this make them stupid ?  Does this make them more deserving of being hurt ?   I don't think so.

The suggested changes in legislation are not there to accuse you of being an idiot....   can you tell me the contents of the wiring tables in the 16th edition regs book ?    I would doubt it, unless you are a qualified electrician... but I don't think that makes you stupid..

As for the competance of electrical trades... well, I can't comment on personal experiences... but I would say that when dealing with an electrcian, make sure they are registered with the NIC EIC.   There is at least a level of protection included in the process of qualifying for membership.

[muddyweb]

And how come we got no warning of this coming? another back door, nanny state, peice of C**P from the labour party.

Well, this is the warning... it's coming in January.   It's not all that back door... it's been published on the Sky News website.

I must admit that I don't know the parliamentary procedure which have been undertaken to implement these regulatory changes,  but there would have been some notifications and documentation.   If we were bombarded with every piece of regulatory change / legislation that went through Whitehall, we would be overwhelmed.. and certainly wouldn't have the time to sit here arguing about it :-)

[Range Rover Blues]

But my house never ran anyone down because the wiring wasn't up to scratch!

It's MY home and MY choice to work on it myself, if a job's worth doing it's worth doing yourself, no-one else gives enough of a damn about it for me to want to pay them.  When I sell my house it's the buyers responsibility to satisfy themselves the wiring is sound and they can ask for a survey.  Julies parents recently had to do this as they have just sold up and emigrated.  The survey, BTW, was just about worth the paper it was written on.

As for the 16th edition IEE regs, have to get the books back out for that one.  As part of studying for my degree I had to also do a module in electrical engineering.

Thing is, for DIY you don't need to be that well qualified, the labling tells you what the cable should be used for, the packaging tells you what supply that shower needs....

....oh, hang on, we're not to be trusted to read the packaging though, are we?

[muddysteve]

Thing is, for DIY you don't need to be that well qualified, the labling tells you what the cable should be used for, the packaging tells you what supply that shower needs....

yes but the pakaging only tells you for a typical installation, it doesn't take into account how far your bathroom is form your dis board and whether the rcd (which you have to have on a shower) is going to trip when it needs to. you need a pretty expensive piece of kit to do that! i've been to a house that nearly burnt to the ground due to a faulty emersion heater. it was fused and wired correctly, the house was protected by an rcd but nothing tripped and it just got hotter and hotter untill the airing cupboard was ablaze. it turns out that the main earth to the house had been disturbed by a gardener which meant all the protection in the house was useless.
Just goes to show how easy things can go wrong with electrics and be no fault of the person living in the house or his wife/kids etc

Steve
(Electrical Engineer)  :twisted:

[Bob696]

...... installation practices can affect the capability of the components.... does this make them stupid ?

No it dosnt but thinking they can do it without proper reseach and knowledge does make them stupid. If I dont know how to do something (and can't find out) I will get someone in who does. Unlike the people who think up this crap I dont have loads of money to burn.

The MOT is a different kettle of fish. It is designed to protect other road users from idiots, even so,  imagine the nightmare if everytime you changed brakepads you had to go and get a new MOT. This new crap is designed to protect you from yourself NOT to protect the general public from you.

[muddyweb]

I'm going to duck out of this before it gets any more heated.  I am not a currently qualified eletrical engineer, but I do (did) hold electrical qualifications and spent many years designing lighting systems for commercial and entertainment venues.

I welcome this particular bit of legislation.

[Bob696]

well things arnt all bad .... we can still eat peanuts  :P

[Sooty]

If the regulation are there to stop numptys from killing the rest of the world then I am sure there are many more regulation just like this to be introduced and there will come a time when the line will have to be drawn or we will need a "qualified" person the open our front gate in case we kill a passer by.
As for Tims comment about a yearly(or 10 yearly) electrical test I think that will come one day it is only a matter of time.
The one group of people that will love this (apart from the electricians) is the insurance companies, one more get out clause, but will that reduce my premium, I don't think so.
Tim has got a valid point and so has Bob, one more case where the numpty minority cost the rest of the population more money, the world is grinding slowly to a regulation induced halt (but maybe a little quicker than my 110 comes to a halt :lol: ).
There will come a time when you are not allowed to change a flat tyre on your car in case you fit it wrong and kill another person in a RTA caused by a wheel coming off.
Hay Ho, its life Tim but not as we would like it.

[Range Rover Blues]

Err, change a tyre? not on a motorway, that's already a no-no.

Thankfully car designers know a little bit more about car owners than politicians do, the torque settings for a wheel nut are quite relaxed for example so that we can do the job ourselves without invalidating the waranty.

[ian_s]

there is a simple way for people who already own a house to get round this legislation.

i did it before the laws came in

how are they gonna prove it?

for people like me who are only looking for a house now, it will certainly affect me, and affect what houses i can buy. if the kitchen or bathroom needs electrical work, thats now priced that house out of my range. although that might also work in my favour.

[ChrisW]

Hmmm hmmm yeah hmmm... and they want £500 quid of your hard earned to register you as approved.

Most reputable firms are already NICEIC registered or moving towards getting registration and as such would be inspected for 'Part P' of the Building Regulations as a matter of course.

I think in the most instances, the need to comply with this would fall under extensions or new buildings - where planning application / building control applications need to be made.

As far as the periodic inspection of domestic installations goes, the wiring regulations recommend an interval of 10 years between inspections - I think this is probably going to be most noticeable when buying or selling properties - it will probably become a condition that a periodic inspection report is provided for the property, in most cases this happens anyway, but more in the form of an electrical survey without the formal paperwork being produced.
Of course this does make for a good bargaining tool for the people looking to buy if the report shows any defects in the installation - question is if they get the price reduced to take account of the work needing to be done would they get it done and certified or still go the cheaper route?!

I have been known to do little jobs for friends and relatives from time to time    but something like this requiring inspection on completion and certification would make me inclined not to bother - most jobs are less than a hundred quid for me - to get someone in to certify the installation on completion would probably add at least another hundred to the price. I get the feeling that most people would rather seek to sort the little jobs out themselves without paying the extra for paperwork.
I'd have to go self employed and get a pretty decent order book in order to go for approval.

Mind you, having been an inspection and test engineer in a previous incarnation and still being pally with the previous company does have its uses!

Looks like I'll have to pack the foreigners in and just go for overtime instead!  :lol:

[ChrisW]

Now then while we're on the subject... what about the wiring colours?
Red, yellow, blue, black, green/yellow
OR
Brown, black, grey, blue, green/yellow

Twenty years time, a newly qualified college leaver is going to walk into a building and see both colours in a distribution board, start working and go bang :!:

Still waiting for someone at work to realise they can't put 1B, 1B, 1G on the DB schedules :lol: