HiClone air swirler

[ian101]

Does anybody have these fitted? Are they as good as the web site will have you believe?

It seems the best option to have 2 fitted.

Hmmmm

[thermidorthelobster]

Do a search on this site and you'll find lots of opinions and people who have tried them.

[MudRat]

i got a set cheap (£15) and fitted them with the intercooler and fule pump tweak, i would save my money for something else if you are payng full price!

[ian101]

Thanks, I have just had a sarch for info on here. Don't think i'll get them fitted. Dont feel too convinced ...

[davidlandy]

wise choice

spend your money on something nice, treat the missus!

[thermidorthelobster]

spend your money on something nice, treat the missus!

...to a snorkel?

[cardiff_gareth]

spend your money on something nice, treat the missus!

...to a snorkel?

Love it  :lol:

[ian101]

well, I was thinking of treating her to some 265 or (285 if feasable) 75/ 16 BFG muds  :D

[Range Rover Blues]

If someone could provide just the tinyest sliver of evidence that these work then I would buy one.

Alternatively if someone could provide me with one I would try to gather several slivers of evidence that they work (or not) :D

[Horness]

Had 3 fitted to my 300 series Disco TDi.

To a stock Disco - yes I saw an improvement in pick-up.  A similar increase to fitting a K&N air filter.  Some people don't see any improvements with a K&N though.

However - when you put that increase alongside things like fitting a snorkel, blanking off the egr, and fitting silicon hoses etc., then the increase is gone.
I removed (read: forgot to re-fit) mine when I did the silicon hoses, and I've since popped them back in to test.  With the above mods done, the increase seemed nil.

For the money - block off the egr, and replace the hoses.  Then, if you are going all the way, snorkel and intercooler.

Range Rover Blues - I may still have mine in the garage (SWMBO tidied last weekend, so don't hold your breath).  If I have, I'll get your address and post them over for you to try out.

Horness

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

I fitted a pair in an effort to improve fuel use etc etc, along with Kenlowe fans, but with the added weight of H/D bumpers, winch and rock sliders, what good had been done by Hiclones, was probably reversed by the added lumps of steel! :roll:
The theory behind them is good, but..............

[thermidorthelobster]

From the theory of how they work, by the time the air's been sucked into the engine I can't see they would make a blind bit of difference.  I'm convinced this is purely a psychological effect, like the car goes quicker when you've cleaned it.  If you want to think it's made a difference, you'll think it has.

A few years ago people were buying "electronic superchargers" for 400 quid or so.  The idea was you stuck one in your air intake and it forced more air in.  It turns out they were basically computer CPU fans (worth about £2), so had about as much power as a rabbit sneezing.  There was no way on god's earth they'd have made any difference at all to hundreds of litres of air rushing through an intake.  But people who had just shelled out 400 quid swore blind they did.

There seems to be a correlation:  the more money you waste, the harder you brain tries to convince you it was well spent.  In fact, now I think about this, Oracle and SAP have built global businesses on the strength of this  :lol:

[Range Rover Blues]

You know what they say about a fool and his money.....


Horness if you ever find them let me know, I think the LSE would be a good test as it's faily consistant in it's use and economy (lack thereof) so any change would show up.

As for the theory, well yes it could work, in a lab on a bluleprinted engine, but in the real world ona production unit the amount of turbulence within the inlet will vary engine to engine anyway.  And if the insides get filthy........

BTW, I notice snorkel cropped up in the conversation somewhere, what's that about exactly? all they will do is slow down the flow of air.

[Arightpest]

Hi all  :D

You say range rover blues

 I notice snorkel cropped up in the conversation somewhere, what's that about exactly? All they will do is slow down the flow of air.  :?

What evidence have you got that a snorkel restricts air flow in anyway. :?

How does a snorkel slow down the flow of air when they have an undisturbed access to a clean flow of air rather than pushed behind a grill or placed in a warn engine bay.   Also many motor bike manufacturers have spent money developing systems called ram air effect using the system of an extended air intake placed at the front of the bike to force air into the carburettor.

Why is an extended air intake called an induction pipe in other forms of car performance tuning recommended? Is it due to the access of colder free flowing air aiding engine performance if not why would they recommend fitting the devise in the first place if it slowed the air flow down? :?

I know we use it to stop the engine drinking the river we are trying to drive through  but I am not sure were you get the idea from that it hinders the engine when most people believe that an extended breather pipe in a free flowing column of air helps the air flow and combustion within the engine.


Please enlighten me.

If you prove me to be wrong with your theory I will gladly eat humble pie and apologise.

The pest

[Range Rover Blues]

Ok, not being rude or picking any fights, but I have a degree in mechanical engineering and automotive design, I worked as a development engineer for Ford Motor company until they bought Jaguar, lost their shirt and laid us all off :roll:

I notice snorkel cropped up in the conversation somewhere, what's that about exactly? All they will do is slow down the flow of air.  

What evidence have you got that a snorkel restricts air flow in anyway.

It's basic fluid dynamics, I won't confuse the hell out of you by talking about Reynolds numbers, but put anything down a tube and it takes kinetic energy away, especially if there are bends in the tube.

How does a snorkel slow down the flow of air when they have an undisturbed access to a clean flow of air rather than pushed behind a grill or placed in a warn engine bay. Under the hood you have a large volume of air that is at least the same pressure as the air outside, if not a little higher, though it will be warm.
Also many motor bike manufacturers have spent money developing systems called ram air effect using the system of an extended air intake placed at the front of the bike to force air into the carburettor. Ram air is a bit of a myth, the effect can work and indeed does, but I suspect it has as much to do with the stickers on the bike as the true effects.  However if you understand the basics of fluid dynamics then there are areas around a body moving in a fluid that experience higher pressures, like the base of the windsceern for one.  this can induce a draught, like the Aeroflow ventilation introduced on the facelift MkI Cortina that Ford continued to use until the Scorpio became too slippery for it to work.  However the Snorkel is located at an area of negative pressure, the top of the windscreen, so I reseve judgement on that

Why is an extended air intake called an induction pipe in other forms of car performance tuning recommended? Is it due to the access of colder free flowing air aiding engine performance if not why would they recommend fitting the devise in the first place if it slowed the air flow down? Trade off of restricted airflow against the cooler air, you're right.  The pipe itself does nothing unless you can place it in an area that allows the car's aerodynamics to force air down it.  Also consider whether the induction pipe is a sealed part of the air system or merely delivers cold air to the vicinity of the airbox.

And also I've got one, it definitely doesn't make the car any faster.

[waveydavey]

I was going to comment on why a snorkel is not going to increase efficency but as usual RRB has done so much better than I ever can.

In simple terms though; a snorkel is not an extended induction system it is a long pipe with bends and resistance that simply leads to the induction system.

Pick up a long piece of pipe and breate through that; see if you find that easier than clear air.

[thermidorthelobster]

If anybody knows how many l/min a TD5 sucks through at moderate revs, it would be very easy to work out what the max ram air effect of the snorkel is, ignoring the resistance of the tubing.  In fact...

My Safari snorkel aperture has a cross-sectional area of 14x10cm.  At 50mph the vehicle will be travelling at 22m/s.  Therefore the snorkel opening will be sweeping through approximately 308,000 cubic cm of air every second (22,000 x 14 x 10cm).  That's 308 litres of air a second.

If this is larger than the amount of air the engine's sucking in (and I suspect it will be...) then the snorkel will be pushing air down to the engine (ie, greater than atmospheric pressure inside the snorkel).  This effect may be diminished by all the considerable losses in the tubing, but it won't be negated.

If it's smaller, then the engine would be sucking the air through the snorkel.  (ie, less than atmospheric pressure in the snorkel.)

Now if RRB can calculate the losses in the tube we'll know exactly  :D  (that's the hard bit)

Feel free to point out any flaws in my logic or maths.

[davidlandy]

that ssounds like the simplist way of working it out.

best to ignore things like windspeed, direction, resistance of the snorkle tube and the restrictions in there.

another thought , the air intake on a standard defender is on the side of the wing on a flat surface, (like the heater)  would this have the opposite effect on the air intake and cause a lower air pressure , rather than a ram effect?

[thermidorthelobster]

another thought , the air intake on a standard defender is on the side of the wing on a flat surface, (like the heater)  would this have the opposite effect on the air intake and cause a lower air pressure , rather than a ram effect?

Generally, yes:  it's the Bernoulli effect, which says that the pressure is lower in a moving fluid than a stationary one.  It's why if you blow between two pieces of paper, they move together.  So as the air blows past the heater intake, it will cause a low pressure area above the intake which will suck air out rather than ramming it in.

[beast5680]

creating a vortex must have some effect :?  i know it works for my toilet :lol:  there,s no way half the stuff would go down without it :lol:

[Tyke]

Safari snorkel aperture has a cross-sectional area of 14x10cm

But only at some infinitely thin section . . . . the tube is tapered . . . . . and also not of true form, this complicates determining the losses at bends etc.


I would expect that the changes in section, direction and form would result in complex boundary effects and the resulting velocity profiles and pressures would be quite difficult to determine. Without 'proper' data and testing it would be very difficult to 'predict' what is actually happening inside the airbox and how the engine is actually using the air that is available to it.





For my money, by fitting a snorkel, any small losses or gains in performance are completly irrelevent when i'm over the bonnet dropping into a ford . . . . I'd sooner my engine breathed air rather than water.




Oh !!!! . . . . . Hi-Clones . . . that's where we were . . . . In theory they should work, but I'll go with go the majority of the guys . . . . 'till someone else proves different  

[Arightpest]

Hi all :D

As I said   if you prove me to be wrong with your theory I will gladly eat humble pie and apologise. :oops:  


And because I do not pretend to be a qualified engineer and can only rely on information that I have acquired over the years from different publications and such like that perhaps I have miss read or was mislead. I am willing to admit or be it grudgingly that I may be wrong.  :twisted: Please don’t forget I am a man (we are never wrong ask the wife) :twisted:

But take notice that the pest will admit when I am proved wrong.

 what way Mr RRB is the best way to point the snorkel and why answer me that little one.  Before I reach for the screw driver and have a little fiddle.


The pest might make waves but do the waves stimulate ideas and discussions or just make your feet wet at the seaside. :?

All the best Arightpest

[Range Rover Blues]

Mine points forewards and I disconnect it for the highway.  It's a Safari and it was designed to point forewards.

Interesting discussion this guys, I like it, buit don't go asking me to do maths, I havn't read that book in years and I'm not sure where it is.  I have a little experiment planned that should give us some reliable data.  All I need now is a fine, dry, calm day, a Land Rover with a snorkel, some clear fishtank tube, a small cup of Ribena, oh and Tim to finish his exams and come help me out

[Tyke]

Are you setting up a manometer to measure the pressure via a column of ribena . . . . certainly sounds like it from your shopping list ?  :lol:


As for the maths . . . . . ditto . . . . . I had access to CFD software in my last job. would only need to model the system in 3D cad and plug in some numbers and it would have given us a solution in minutes. These days we don't much bother with the calculus, just plug in to the computer, the physics is the same though . . . . understand that and the fluid dynamics job is easy.


Anyone out there with access to CFD software, (Fluent, CFDesign, ect), that would like a look at this problem . . . I could provide suitable cad models.

[cardiff_gareth]

You guys need to get out more  :!:

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[Tyke]

Think your right mate . . . . it always goes like this when the engineers get thinking a bit . . . . but hey, it's only what some of us do for a living :lol:

[shaun and co]

Be interesting to see what you come up with for this one. Cant say i notice much difference with or without snorkel but then me and observation............... :roll:  :roll:  :roll:

[thermidorthelobster]

Safari snorkel aperture has a cross-sectional area of 14x10cm

But only at some infinitely thin section . . . . the tube is tapered . . . . . and also not of true form, this complicates determining the losses at bends etc.

What do you mean, infinitely thin section?  None of my snorkel is infinitely thin, otherwise it would break :?  I'm talking about the bit that sweeps through the stationary air column.  Obviously I'm simplifying but that doesn't mean you can't make generalisations.  The figure I got for the swept volume of air seems to be orders of magnitude greater than the engine intake volume.  So the things you say will make a difference, but they're not the overriding factor.  Just because you simplify the calculations doesn't mean the model doesn't work.

[Tyke]

Just because you simplify the calculations doesn't mean the model doesn't work

Not suggesting it does mate . . . . just thinking about the 'nitty-gritty' .


The thin section refers to the csa of the column of air, inside the snorkel, at a given section along it's length and the effects these changes of csa will have on the velocities and pressures within the intake system.




Agreed that taking the swept volume at the intake is perfectly adequate to determine the volume of air that should, theoreticaly, be transfered through the sytem, and give you a velocity of the air at the intake . . . . but what happens beyond that . . . . ?


I'd expect to see the airbox pressurising, across the air filter, as a result of the air being scooped into the intake and a measurement of this differential across the air filter compared to a 'standard setup' would give an indication of any potential fuel charge improvements that may be a result of fitting a snorkel.


Combine this with the fact that high pressure always migrates to areas of lower pressure, in an attempt to loose kinetic energy, then it stands to reason that if the pressure is lower on the engine side of the air filter then more air will be sucked/forced through the system into the engine. This will result in a higher content of oxygen available to mix with the fuel. Given the effects of the intercooler making the air charge denser then it would also stand to reason that the engine would see a better quality fuel/air mix and hence give a bigger bang on ignition . . . . . . within reasonable limits . . . . :twisted: . . . . engines can run a bit 'warm' with the mix on the lean side  




Come on RRB . . . . lets have some data to play with