Faith In The Forum Community Dented.....

[electricbluebadger]

Just a personal opinion and feel free to slate me but I've always offered help, advice and experience on this and many other forums at no charge..its part of being a member of a community such as this... We Help each other where we can at no cost and with no prejudice.

I thought about whether to post this or not but its bugging me so I will...

I posted re a turbo mod and logged in later to see a reply asking how easy and for info on how to do it... I originally got the info from a poster on another forum so why does a fellow forummer with the info at their fingertips want to charge a fellow forumer a tenner for the privelege??? of passing on a few details???

Fine we all glean info from various forums, friends fellow enthusiasts but does the fact that youve grouped the info onto a CD justify charging £10 rather than a quick PDF email for free??

http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=45261

I will continue to post any help, info, gleaned nuggets of wisdom as do most on the forum to help out those in need / with questions and I'm dammed if I would ever charge a fellow enthusiast for help.....

dismayed/ disappointed to say the least

But as I said Just my opinion and feel free to slate it...broad shoulders n all that :)

Cheers Steve

[Evilgoat]

I think you'll find this has been addressed dude :)

I know if it was any use I'd be grateful for your input. Sadly it isnt but still glad you posted it :)

[Yoshi]

I have noticed a few people on "other" forums who charge £6 odd at least for these cd's.  Personally if it were legal i would only charge people the cost of the stamp, envelope and cd :D which would equate to less than £1 i would imagine, but some people like to profit out of others.

[datalas]

Sadly if you think about it they are making a profit out of someone elses work, which is a breach of copyright and illegal.  the extent of the morality of such can be debated, but sad to say that by offering to breach copyright they've already presented a certain how shall we say, moral flexibility..

Anyhow, I wasn't reading the forum in question, what was the problem ? and I'll see if I can help, since I've not been paying attention :D

[welshlaner]

Know of this quite well on another forum mainly over workshop manuals

Noticed once a link put on asking for infro any free workshop manual links are deleted almost straight away, mods claim because of copywright

Then someone suggests were you can puchase them for a £5

[Yoshi]

welshlaner i believe we are probably talking about the same forum.

I didnt know wether the Rave software was legal or not?  I do have a proper copy of the Range Rover Classic stuff, or at least i think it is, it came in a proper case and its a proper cd, not a cd-r.

[wizard]

That was my post and I stand by it.

The booklet I offer for a tenner is not a copy of the info that is available in the other link.
That book to me about 4 months to compile with my own pictures/ diagrams and photos.
It has detailed information on many aspect of tuning diesels and turbo maintenance.

The second link that I posted gives a good and free insight in to getting more power from your engine. But is not the definitive guide to diesel engines.

Fortunately we still live in a democracy and people can and will make up there own minds, if you think I am ripping you off by charging a tenner for this info so be it don’t buy it, easy !!. maybe because it have dimensions for rock sliders, wheel spacer, suspension spacers and many other sought after parts I should offer there free as well, because after all as you said

so why does a fellow forummer with the info at their fingertips want to charge a fellow forumer a tenner for the privelege??? of passing on a few details

I have spent many years on this and other forums and anyone who knows me will know that I do not and never have conned anyone, I have gave advice where I could and been round peoples houses to help with Land Rover related jobs they were stuck on.

Regards
wizard

[thermidorthelobster]

Speaking personally, providing somebody isn't passing somebody else's work off as their own (which has happened to me in the past), I don't object at all to somebody selling their own material - surely it's just entrepreneurial?

You either use the free information on the Internet, or you have the option, if you choose, of spending money something somebody's put a bit more work into, which might make your life easier.

There are a few people on eBay selling guides to installing DII facelift headlights, for about 20 quid.  If I ever do the job, I'll be spending the 20 quid, because (going by the advertising) the instructions are more detailed and thorough than those I'm likely to find on a forum.

Is it much different to Wikipedia - although a wealth of info is available for free in the public domain, nobody complains at encyclopedia companies offering an alternative product and charging for it.

The key point surely is that, as Wizard said, you're entirely free to either buy the product or not, depending on whether you think it has value!

If the product in question used other people's material and contributions then I'd take a different view on it.

[rollazuki]

Id say if you dont wanna pay, then dont buy it, If you can persuade someone to tell you how to do it for free, then go for it.

hardly worth bellyaching about

 :roll:

[electricbluebadger]

Nobodys bellyaching about what is for sale...its a sale , its on Ebay not an issue apart from the fact that as mentioned it will be info gleaned from many sources rejigged and compiled which means the basis is other peoples work.

The issue is using the forum to commercially sell a product rather than providing help for free as we all do, the moderators quite rightly pointed out its a breach of policy and dealt with it immediately...The original posts point proven

I still feel that my morals would not allow me to sleep soundly if I were to charge fellow forumers for info I had gleaned over the years, perhaps its my mistake...hmmm wonder how much I could make if I posted pictures of my fitted rangey rear seat that people often ask for close ups of the bracket mods and charged em a royalty for the info, many mods on the 90 , a complete photographic guide to building my first bobtail, a step by step guide on stripping the lightweight and rebuilding... The series 1 is about to be completely stripped and rebuilt over the next year and will be documented on my site.... The only slight difference is everything on my site is my own work / copyright with the exception of the pics that people have asked me to put on the www. for them, loads more on my site all for free and always happy to answer the 5-10 emails a week I get....HMMMM I can see a money making scheme coming into view...What a fool Ive been helping for free all these years :)

No wonder Im always skint :)

Cheers Steve

[thermidorthelobster]

To be fair, if you want to charge for the information you provide, nobody's stopping you, just as nobody's forcing you to buy Wizard's information.  It's up to you whether you come to the forum as a hobbyist / enthusiast or somebody who makes their livelihood from the 4x4 industry.

You're correct that the other post was pulled because it was using the forum to sell a commercial product;  I understood your gripe to be that somebody was offering a commercial product based on this information regardless of whether it was delivered through the forum or not.

why does a fellow forummer with the info at their fingertips want to charge a fellow forumer a tenner for the privelege??? of passing on a few details???

- maybe because it's his livelihood?

Regarding sharing information, I'm sure if you call Devon 4x4, or Discoparts, or any number of other companies who have members within this forum, the responses you will get will be based on people's wide experiences.  If Company X is selling you some shock absorbers with written instructions, they're not going to withhold useful information which they gleaned by talking to people on this forum.  So in a sense, surely all information you buy from companies comes from shared experiences, unless they have designers and engineers working in sealed workshops who are prevented from communicating with their customers?  OK, I'm playing Devil's Advocate a bit here.

One option would be to ban anybody with a commercial interest from taking part in the forum at all, but the community would be much poorer for this.  Remember, Wizard didn't just offer to sell you a product, he also posted a link with free shared information.  Whilst as a moderator I'd have to enforce rules about commercial advertising, I also appreciate the non-commercial information Wizard and others share on the forum.

[thermidorthelobster]

By the way, the rules of the forum don't actually preclude people from giving commercial recommendations in response to members' posts, within reason.

[welshlaner]

welshlaner i believe we are probably talking about the same forum.

I didnt know wether the Rave software was legal or not?  I do have a proper copy of the Range Rover Classic stuff, or at least i think it is, it came in a proper case and its a proper cd, not a cd-r.

Not just that one serveral do it as well, someone asks for some infro, then someone posts a link to genunue workshop manuals, often on websites outside the uk, the link is delated and the orginal poster gets fusrated. Then he pm's the bloke who posted the link and the infro geamed.

I can see the forum mods problem but if its a link to a website outside the uk whats the problem. some countries have different copywright laws/guidelines your just not goin to stop it.

It was the same with lane infromation some years back, plenty of sites offering route plans etc for £5 - £10 then someone wrote there own for free, posted the links on the forums and guess what, had them deleated. Why cause the forum mods claimed would encourage the "wrong sort" of people going laning, but closer investigation revealed that the mods had vested interests in the fee paying route plans.

Too many people have tried to make a fast buck out of the hobby only to find the forums and the tinernet has changed a lot, the trend is for free information, by all means write, publish and charge for  CDs but with the ease of copying and the hassle of inforcement think hard about it, its often very hard to make any money out of technical writing

[datalas]

I can see the forum mods problem but if its a link to a website outside the uk whats the problem. some countries have different copyright laws/guidelines your just not going to stop it.

Well, there's two things involved in that one I guess.

1) There may well be different legal restrictions on copyright in other countries, but mud-club is hosted in this one and has to abide by the laws and conditions of it,  if only because we run the risk of getting kicked out of the data center if we don't.

2) It is illigal (at least in this country) and that is the simple matter-of-fact of it,  it's legal to sell body organs in brazil, but I'd still worry about anyone auctioning off their kidneys...

[welshlaner]

Well, there's two things involved in that one I guess.

1) There may well be different legal restrictions on copyright in other countries, but mud-club is hosted in this one and has to abide by the laws and conditions of it,  if only because we run the risk of getting kicked out of the data center if we don't.

2) It is illigal (at least in this country) and that is the simple matter-of-fact of it,  it's legal to sell body organs in brazil, but I'd still worry about anyone auctioning off their kidneys...

Ok then but instead of putting the link up would it be acceptable to say so and so club in XXXXX country has the info on their website.

This seems to be a problem can't name a site which has it, so people then say try our friends in the "Northern Country club site " its on there.

Different UK based forums have different rules some allow direct links others one has to look for clues

[datalas]

International juristiction on the internet is indeed a very interesting question however there is one over riding simplistic interpretation is that you don't (as a moderator, service provider, web host or other) want to become an accessory to the crime in question.

Recent anti-porn and anti-piracy raids have proved that it is not a simple case of hosting the material, but linking to it is also prohibited, at least unless you want to end up in a whole heap of trouble.

You're right, not all forums have the same copyright policies,  but this is ours and we respectfully ask that people abide by it.

[thermidorthelobster]

Quite apart from the legality, there is also a question of the ethics of software theft.  Despite the fact that illegal software copying is very widespread, you'll still find plenty of people in this forum and elsewhere who disagree with it.

No doubt there are parts of the world where almost anything is legal, but that doesn't mean the Club would be keen on promoting (say for example) bestiality, on somebody else's servers.

[markyd]

been here since 2003, every body has a choice whether to log on here or not, my opinion is the mods and admin do a good job, if anybody doesn't agree with the way it is run then don't log on. simple really! I am part of admin team on another forum and the amount of background work that goes on is staggering, especially in a club this size.

its really about time people gave the admin time some slack otherwise whats there motivation to carry on?, i know i would get pretty fed up every time a change was announced to go through this justification process.

Any how keep up the good work chaps 8)