Upsetting the applecart #1 - carbon neutral biofuel

[Biodiesel-Bev]

where are we gonna grow all these oil producing plants, becuase looking at the numbers of gallons per acre and what have you, it doesn't add up.

Therein lies another problem, because in the developing world there's a lot of burning down of nice CO2-sequestering forests to clear land for biofuel agriculture.  It's not a panacea;  using less fuel in the first place still has to be the ultimate goal.  But still, it's better than dino juice.

As I said earlier, Biodiesel isn't the 'Holy Grail', but it certainly has more positive benefits to using it instead of dino-diesel.  Oh, and it's cheaper....I'd certainly rather pay 79ppl for biodiesel than 95-99.9ppl for dino-diesel!  

[Wireless]

As may be so, but the immediate output is a huge imbalance caused by a sudden release of oodles of CO2 and other gaseous contaminents.

Gets back to what I was saying, my fossil fuel is carbon neutral, we're just debating the time-frame of it all.  

But  good point, none the less.

The point is, the absorbed CO2 from subduction balances the volcanic output over the course of a year, and the figures for the area we're looking at here for this gaseous exchange of carbon amounts to just 2% of total gaseous exchange of CO2 during the year.

My second point is this, the CO2 has to be absorbed by subduction before release, so if there was a CO2 imbalance (a minor local one in the great scheme of the planet), then the local imbalance before eruption is a loss of CO2 for many years between eruptions.

Just thought I should...er, point this out.

[Wireless]

Anyway, the real point is this, us humans are interfering with the natural balance of the Carbon Cycle, which as has been pointed out, is the time frame of gaseous exchange of CO2 in the atmosphere.

The imbalance has caused a steady increase in CO2 in the atmosphere over the last 150 years, any 'Climate Change' is just the planet reacting to the imbalance and changes in weather systems, glaciation, precipitation patterns, and average temperatures on the planet are the result.

There's nothing we can do about the next 3 degrees or so of global warming, thats going to happen anyway, even if we stopped pushing out any more CO2 today for good, but all this crap about using the 'one life, live it' slogan as a genuine reason for ignoring or ridiculing the situation is just stupid.

Millions are going to die, or migrate, looking for land and water, and fighting wars over it, possibly for the next 1,000 years, before the World gets over what we've done to it and re-dresses the imbalance.

I'm just glad I live on a hill overlooking a river valley in a developed country, at least my grand kids have got a chance of owning beach front property when the sea level rises 70 metres.

The situation isn't funny, it's sad, and it's going to get worse before it gets better, and people best wake up to realise this before it's too late.

In the meantime, I'll run (and enjoy) my 11 year old V8 on LPG and save 15% CO2 emissions, and my pocket.

[Biodiesel-Bev]

Anyway, the real point is this, us humans are interfering with the natural balance of the Carbon Cycle, which as has been pointed out, is the time frame of gaseous exchange of CO2 in the atmosphere.

The imbalance has caused a steady increase in CO2 in the atmosphere over the last 150 years, any 'Climate Change' is just the planet reacting to the imbalance and changes in weather systems, glaciation, precipitation patterns, and average temperatures on the planet are the result.

There's nothing we can do about the next 3 degrees or so of global warming, thats going to happen anyway, even if we stopped pushing out any more CO2 today for good, but all this crap about using the 'one life, live it' slogan as a genuine reason for ignoring or ridiculing the situation is just stupid.

Millions are going to die, or migrate, looking for land and water, and fighting wars over it, possibly for the next 1,000 years, before the World gets over what we've done to it and re-dresses the imbalance.

I'm just glad I live on a hill overlooking a river valley in a developed country, at least my grand kids have got a chance of owning beach front property when the sea level rises 70 metres.

The situation isn't funny, it's sad, and it's going to get worse before it gets better, and people best wake up to realise this before it's too late.

In the meantime, I'll run (and enjoy) my 11 year old V8 on LPG and save 15% CO2 emissions, and my pocket.

Well said.   =D>

Unfortunately, the world is full of folk who bury their heads in the sand and deny that the world is changing.  

Comments like "I couldn't give a hoot about my carbon footprint", as written by a member earlier in this topic, don't help.  And we wonder why 4x4 owners/drivers get a bad name with attitudes like that!?!  :shock:

[Eeyore]

Maybe so, but at a local level, the v8 is still producing no less CO2 running LPG than it was, fact is it's probably usuing more due to a lower calorific value and a lower thermal effieciency in the engine.  

The LPG was still pulled out the ground and still processed so I really doubt if the CO2 savings are as real as made out.

Yes, it's a serious issue, but if you want to take it really seriously, a smaller car will burn less lpg per mile and would be even better for enviroment. And if it's an older car it's already been built.  

Be carefull what you argue, there's always a smartypants about  

But at least if we can get the arguements straight in here, we can make a better statement in the bigger world. Which has gotta be a bonus.

Cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[Wireless]

Maybe so, but at a local level, the v8 is still producing no less CO2 running LPG than it was, fact is it's probably usuing more due to a lower calorific value and a lower thermal effieciency in the engine.  

The LPG was still pulled out the ground and still processed so I really doubt if the CO2 savings are as real as made out.

Ahem...read this http://www.fuelture.com/About-LPG/

Yes, it's a serious issue, but if you want to take it really seriously, a smaller car will burn less lpg per mile and would be even better for enviroment.

If the smaller car isn't fit for my purpose then obviously I'll use a larger car or 4x4 that is fit for purpose, whether Petrol or LPG, so your point is mute depending on my intended use for a vehicle.

And if it's an older car it's already been built.  

I believe I did point out that my V8 is 11 years old.

Be carefull what you argue, there's always a smartypants about  

People in glass houses shouldn't go <edit> on their own doorstep, no maybe thats not right...oh you get the gist!

But at least if we can get the arguements straight in here, we can make a better statement in the bigger world. Which has gotta be a bonus.

True...and I reckon I'm gonna win this one.

[Eeyore]

Sadly the webiste opens with a big ol' wrong 'un.  :(

How does burning LPG produce 60% less CO2?

What does it reduce to when it combusts? LPG is a hydrocarbon fuel, kilo for kilo its combustion byproduct in terms of CO2 isn't a great deal different from petrol. Try here

Sadly, the folk that develop powertrains will argue the 60% figure very strongly and I doubt whoever wrote the report has ever actually seen an emissions test. Personally, I beleive these guys more than an LPG promotional site.

Maybe they're talking about the complete 'carbon balance' when they talk about 60%, but if that is the case they don't make it clear. And as I've said, my dino-diesel comes ulitmately from dead plants blah blah blah. LPG is a hydrocarbon fuel, kilo for kilo its combustion byproduct in terms of CO2 isn't a great deal different.

This is our big problem. There is a lot of info floating about, but sadly, a lot of it is somewhat biased by the folks who want to look better. Just lifting info a website is fine, but it rarely, if anything, tells the whole story.

Regarding the car arguement, we could argue that a McClaren F1, or a Dodge Ram 3500 suits our need as a daily driver if we wanted to. I think the whole point with saving the enviroment is that sacrifices have to be made and lifestyles need to change. Our needs have to change otherwise alternatives to fossil fuels don't stand a chance.  

This isn't about simple victories, is about making sure your arguements are watertight, and bluntly, many of the arguements put forward globally aren't. But as long as I'm making you think, I reakon that kinda puts me on top   (Joking!)

If you think I'm harsh, wait till you face a real greenie  

Oh, and watch they words, now.  

Cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[rollazuki]

Lets face it, most of us run Bio/veg cos it saves money on the gas guzzling monsters we drive.
The fact that its a bit greener is a bonus.
Veg/bio produces less sulphur based emissions, and carcinogens from what Ive read, and smells so much nicer.
Thats good enough for me.

[Wireless]

The reduction in CO2 emissions between petrol and LPG is one based on energy released and combustion efficiency, the burning of LPG releasing, to move the same vehicle, overall, 10 to 15% less CO2.

Many different websites claim up to 75% less CO2 is released, but I haven't quoted them, because they do not take into account the differences in comparing these alternative fuels in real vehicles designed primarily to use petrol most efficiently.

It is you that have quoted the 60% figure here, I merely draw your attention to the fact that the consensus across the majority of different sources on the web quote a figure approaching a 15% saving on CO2 emissions, in using LPG instead of petrol, after all factors are taken into account.

The 60% to 75% figures relates to mass differences in the chemical reactions, which I don't doubt might be correct, but the exothermic energy levels between these reactions is also different, and to produce the same amount of energy requires use of more LPG fuel.

From the URL you provide; obviously LPG is more efficient in combining with atmospheric oxygen within internal combustion engines, than heavier fuels, since CO is virtually absent from the exhaust gases, and the majority of emissions are CO2 and water.

I concede that the difference between the CO2 emissions of LPG & diesel are similar, although slightly in favour of LPG, but then I know which vehicle I'd rather be following behind, and which I'd rather drive.

My argument is based on the fact that whatever vehicle you wish to own as a daily driver, even if it's a McClaren F1 or Dodge Ram 3500, you'll produce an average of 15% less CO2 emissions if you run it on LPG rather than petrol, and slightly better than if you ran it on a diesel lump.

Agreed, everyone should consider a vehicle best suited to their needs, and economy is a factor.  Unless government or industry produces viable alternatives that are all better for the environment, then LPG is the only solution that presents itself as a viable option to offset my carbon footprint for the vehicle I own.

I'd rather sit on the side of informed scientific consensus rather than ensuring my position is watertight, but should you produce evidence to the contrary I'll consider it on it's merits.

In the meantime, I'll follow the advice of scientists, as shown here

http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/offices/environment/guidance/vehicle.html

and continue to run my V8 on LPG.

[Biodiesel-Bev]

Lets face it, most of us run Bio/veg cos it saves money on the gas guzzling monsters we drive.
The fact that its a bit greener is a bonus.
Veg/bio produces less sulphur based emissions, and carcinogens from what Ive read, and smells so much nicer.
Thats good enough for me.

You're right.  

When new customers phone us enquiring about our biodiesel, one of the first questions is "How much is it a litre?"  The fact that it's greener is a bonus, and that it's made from recycled used cooking oil is an even bigger bonus.

[redhand]

Given I'm worried about upsetting my somewhat finicky TD5 with anything other than 100% pure full-fat dino juice, I've taken the alternative route, which is to use the bike instead for local runs, and Abby's nice economical Rover for longer trips when I have a choice...  Might chuck some sunflower oil in at some point though and see what breaks!

you do know that when they developed the TD5 engine they ran it on the kerosenefor 50.000miles so they could see what the effect of using crap fuel would be.

[Hobnailkelly]

Well I'm feeling really smug and superior today 'cos I've just filled me 1986 RRC with biodiesel for the first time  (2.8 Diahatsu TD powered in case anyone thinks I'm a complete idiot)  There's a place just across from where I work started making it so I thought I should go have a chat with the man.  Knew what he was talking about so I'm now officially 'GREEN'

Just hope it starts t'morrow ...

[Eeyore]

sorry, but......

The presented CO2 reduction figure is doubtful.

Your burning more fuel per mile and the difference in CO2 as a combustion by-product is insignifcant, kilo for kilo, between petrol and LPG.

Whether an individual chooses to belive this or not, is mostly their concern.

Whilst thwy can be quite happy with the views they've accpeted, I feel it's worth giving everybody else the altenrative view on the discussion.

I quoted 60% becuase, oddly, thats what the presented reference pointed me at.    

Cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[CaptainColourful]

Lets face it, most of us run Bio/veg cos it saves money on the gas guzzling monsters we drive.
The fact that its a bit greener is a bonus.
Veg/bio produces less sulphur based emissions, and carcinogens from what Ive read, and smells so much nicer.
Thats good enough for me.

You're right.  

When new customers phone us enquiring about our biodiesel, one of the first questions is "How much is it a litre?"  The fact that it's greener is a bonus, and that it's made from recycled used cooking oil is an even bigger bonus.

The cost of a gallon of Bio is recently being advertised on Real Radio ( by uk bio-fuels I think) They claim you can save 25p per GALLON .... just when I have got used to litres they start advertising gallons again !
A clever advertising plot mefinks  

25p off per gallon is roughly 5p a litre ...  hardly a massive saving compared to the 40.9 per litre I am paying for LPG (a 56p saving against unleaded)

Is it me, or are certain people pushing bio as a way of making a massive profit for themselves ?

The Govt tax is less, but the apparent profit margins for commercial outlets and manufacturers seems to negate any tax bonus.
Welcome to Rip Off Britain.


One day, when we all have the acreage to grow our own fuel we will not only save the planet, but also save our wallets.

[Biodiesel-Bev]

Lets face it, most of us run Bio/veg cos it saves money on the gas guzzling monsters we drive.
The fact that its a bit greener is a bonus.
Veg/bio produces less sulphur based emissions, and carcinogens from what Ive read, and smells so much nicer.
Thats good enough for me.

You're right.  

When new customers phone us enquiring about our biodiesel, one of the first questions is "How much is it a litre?"  The fact that it's greener is a bonus, and that it's made from recycled used cooking oil is an even bigger bonus.

The cost of a gallon of Bio is recently being advertised on Real Radio ( by uk bio-fuels I think) They claim you can save 25p per GALLON .... just when I have got used to litres they start advertising gallons again !
A clever advertising plot mefinks  

25p off per gallon is roughly 5p a litre ...  hardly a massive saving compared to the 40.9 per litre I am paying for LPG (a 56p saving against unleaded)

Is it me, or are certain people pushing bio as a way of making a massive profit for themselves ?

The Govt tax is less, but the apparent profit margins for commercial outlets and manufacturers seems to negate any tax bonus.
Welcome to Rip Off Britain.


One day, when we all have the acreage to grow our own fuel we will not only save the planet, but also save our wallets.

We sell Biodiesel for 79ppl, which comparitively amongst other biodiesel producers/sellers is amongst the lowest prices.  

As for a "massive profit" - I WISH!  Take the following production costs into account:
- cost of the oil (Rapeseed oil 32p per litre) ,
- Road fuel duty (28.8p per litre)
- Chemicals & filters (10p per litre)

Thats 68.8p per litre to make, and thats without adding on the cost of business premises, tax, loans, wages, vehicles, VAT, etc.

If thats massive profit, then you're easily pleased.  That's why some producers have to sell their biodiesel for 88p-92p per litre.  The less things a producer has to fork out for, then the cheaper the fuel.

[L90OOK]

The reduction in CO2 emissions between petrol and LPG is one based on energy released and combustion efficiency, the burning of LPG releasing, to move the same vehicle, overall, 10 to 15% less CO2.

But isn't fuel economy, whilst running on LPG, 10-15% worse than on petrol...therefore overall CO2 emissions for that vehicle are the same whether running Petrol or LPG?  :-s  :-k

[datalas]

I think one of the main "benefits" that people try to point out about LPG is that it's one of the gasses that tends to get burnt off during distillation so collecting it and using it in a car is considered a bonus.

Now, that's pretty open to debate, but I think you'll find that most of these things are.  No vehicle or method of transport is actually the answer,  nor is any particular type of fuel.

This is what annoys me most about the entire debate,  people are looking for quick and easy answers but there aren't any.   Lifestyles will have to be altered,  people will have to be encouraged to recycle more and waste less.

The trouble is that you end up with human nature declaring that "they" (the individual) isn't the problem and that someone else is.

We all have our parts to play, and using "green" fuels helps, but so does keeping your car in good working order,  leaving earlier to avoid traffic, turning lights off,  not gluing bits of paper to people's windscreens etc...

[CaptainColourful]

The reduction in CO2 emissions between petrol and LPG is one based on energy released and combustion efficiency, the burning of LPG releasing, to move the same vehicle, overall, 10 to 15% less CO2.

But isn't fuel economy, whilst running on LPG, 10-15% worse than on petrol...therefore overall CO2 emissions for that vehicle are the same whether running Petrol or LPG?  :-s  :-k

Yes LPG is slightly down on petrol mpg, but does burn cleaner.
MPG around town is about 14-16 (rush hour traffic) and on a nice run is about 24-26... thats US gal, so add 10% for imperial .

So it all adds up to about the same on my reckoning.  ... and yes its costing me a lot less on LPG than petrol, so I am one happy bunny

Using Bio-diesel is a step in the right direction, but I still think that it's too pricey for the average motorist to risk trying in his precious car in order to save just 5p a litre.... The real answer is to change the habits of a lifetime.

If these bio companies really think that they have my sympathy about costs etc, all I can say is they must think a lot more than I do about saving the planet... nobody starts a company that is doomed to be a loss maker.
They would be better off starting a fleet of minibuses and offering cheap rides !

[Biodiesel-Bev]

[quote="CaptainColourful]
Using Bio-diesel is a step in the right direction, but I still think that it's too pricey for the average motorist to risk trying in his precious car in order to save just 5p a litre.... The real answer is to change the habits of a lifetime.

If these bio companies really think that they have my sympathy about costs etc, all I can say is they must think a lot more than I do about saving the planet... nobody starts a company that is doomed to be a loss maker.
They would be better off starting a fleet of minibuses and offering cheap rides ![/quote]




Some of the biodiesel producers do it on a non-profit bases, so yes, maybe they do care more about the planet than you.   :-s

Using your example of a 5ppl saving, in a 50 litre tank that's a £2.50 saving, it may not seem that much but think about how much people complain when dino-diesel goes up a penny at the pumps!  And £2.50 per fill up soon adds up over the year. If the saving is 10ppl (£5 per tank saving) or 15ppl etc.... well I'll let you do the maths.  If folk would rather pay 95ppl+ for dino-diesel, then fine, but many prefer to make a saving.  

As for people like me 'pushing' biodiesel' for my own benefit, that only applies if someone buys it from me, and most forum members, i would guess, don't live near me for me to benefit from their custom.  As many 4x4 are 'gas-guzzlers' surely people would like to know about a cheaper/greener alternative to dino-diesel.   You, as an LPG user, must be bothered about the pennies to have gone to the trouble and cost of having your vehicle converted to run on LPG.  :-k  

[Wireless]

OK, I've found on this site references to mass of CO2 produced by burning gasoline (petrol), and converted the US Gallons to Imperial Gallons.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/climate/420f05004.htm#step1

The figure for Petrol is 10.53 kg CO2 per gallon

I've also used the URL previously posted for the mass of CO2 produced by burning LPG, and converted this figure to Imperial Gallons.

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch01/final/c01s05.pdf

The figure for LPG is 6.82 kg CO2 per gallon

I get 18 mpg on petrol and 17 mpg on LPG.

So per mile I push out 585g of CO2 on petrol, and 401g of CO2 on LPG.

So, based on US EPA figures for CO2 production, and my own fuel consumption figures, I push out over 31% less CO2 into the atmosphere by running on LPG.  I'll have to compare this figure to other cars.

I'm sure someone will be running a 300 TDi Disco and will trawl the net for figures to find out their own CO2 grammes per mile whilst running on diesel, but I'm afraid I can't be bothered to do it.

[CaptainColourful]

Using your example of a 5ppl saving, in a 50 litre tank that's a £2.50 saving, it may not seem that much but think about how much people complain when dino-diesel goes up a penny at the pumps! And £2.50 per fill up soon adds up over the year. If the saving is 10ppl (£5 per tank saving) or 15ppl etc.... well I'll let you do the maths.

L.P.G.    = 41 ppl
Petrol    = 97 ppl

A saving 56p per litre   ..... = £28 per 50 litres top up !

I admit the conversion wasn't cheap, but the way I look at it is the conversion cost is within the total price of the car on the road and was budgeted for when I bought the vehicle.
 
I am not knocking anyone using Biofuels, but merely pointing out that the immediate savings both emmisions wise and pocket wise are more obvious with LPG  than a 5ppl saving over dino-diesel by buying a blended biofuel.  

I will now step down from my soapbox before I upset those who are doing their bit to save the planet.  

[Wireless]

I admit the conversion wasn't cheap, but the way I look at it is the conversion cost is within the total price of the car on the road and was budgeted for when I bought the vehicle.

I know what you mean, when I was looking at buying the V8 or a TDi back in 1999 I noted that the same model year V8 was £3000 cheaper than the TDi, and then had the LPG conversion done for £1200.

LPG was 35p a litre back then.

I've since put another 81,000 mile on the V8, so I reckon it's paid for the conversion a few times over since then.

[Biodiesel-Bev]

Using your example of a 5ppl saving, in a 50 litre tank that's a £2.50 saving, it may not seem that much but think about how much people complain when dino-diesel goes up a penny at the pumps! And £2.50 per fill up soon adds up over the year. If the saving is 10ppl (£5 per tank saving) or 15ppl etc.... well I'll let you do the maths.

L.P.G.    = 41 ppl
Petrol    = 97 ppl

A saving 56p per litre   ..... = £28 per 50 litres top up !

I admit the conversion wasn't cheap, but the way I look at it is the conversion cost is within the total price of the car on the road and was budgeted for when I bought the vehicle.
 
I am not knocking anyone using Biofuels, but merely pointing out that the immediate savings both emmisions wise and pocket wise are more obvious with LPG  than a 5ppl saving over dino-diesel by buying a blended biofuel.  

I will now step down from my soapbox before I upset those who are doing their bit to save the planet.  

Just out of interest, is there road fuel duty on LPG?  If it's bought for domestic heating, then obviously there isn't, but if it's bought as road fuel surely there is road fuel duty?  :?

[CaptainColourful]

The most recent figures I can find are :


2006 fuel duty (as of September 2006) in the United Kingdom is:
48.35 pence per litre for ultra-low sulphur unleaded petrol/diesel
48.35 pence per litre for conventional unleaded petrol
48.35 pence per litre for conventional diesel
28.35 pence per litre for bio-diesel and bio ethanol - low tax to encourage consumer conversion
12.21 pence per kg for gas other than natural gas (LPG)
10.81 pence per kg for natural gas used as road fuel.
7.69 pence per litre for rebated gas oil (red diesel)
7.29 pence per litre for rebated fuel oil


The March 2007 Budget announced that from October 2007 there will be a 2 pence increase in fuel duty rates.


http://www.petrolprices.com/fuel-tax.html

[Smego]

I couldn't give a hoot about the environmentalists!

I couldn't give a hoot about my carbon footprint!

And we wonder why 4x4 owners get bad press from the environmentalists?