Attempted good deed...

[V8MoneyPit]

On the way home from work tonight, we came across a police car diverting traffic. I stopped, assuming a crash and offered help to clear the road. It turns out a car had rolled at a tight bend. But I was told there was a recovery vehicle en-route, but thanks anyway.

I passed by about 1/2 hour later and the road was still shut. I can't help thinking that stupid health and safety rules came in to play here. If I had winched the car over and dragged it out of the way, the road would have been open again.

It's not like it was a busy road and the diversion was not too far round. So I guess there wasn't any urgency.

Still, at least I offered I suppose.

[SWEETY]

We did the same this year after a had flipped onto it's roof due to it going into a ditch after the road froze solid because of a hail storm & then a down poor of snow.There was a hilux surf & a poor & very cold police woman trying to shift it to open the road up. We ended up stopping the traffic then pushing the capri as the surf tried to pull it off the road into a field. I ended up with a nice cut on my ankle as the exhaust flipped around as the surf managed to get some grip. I then pulled the surf out of the field :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[Bush Tucker Man]

I can't help thinking that stupid health and safety rules came in to play here. If I had winched the car over and dragged it out of the way, the road would have been open again.

Exactly. Like you I've been there as well (& I'll guess we're not the only ones as well??)

[Lee_D]

Steve I'm sure your offer was well appreciated!

We've all I'm sure seen some scary recovery going on with 4x4's , unfortunately the bobbies aren't able to invite peeps to help and  with some of the antics some would get up to this is probably a good policy.

Recovery companies who get to go on the rota system in our county have to pass some very stringent tests.. some who are well equipped and have massive wreckers weren't signed up because the refused to meet the standards required - other companies have spent scary amounts of money to meet the standards required.

Having watched recovery of HGV's on their sides the reason becomes fully apparent - ther recovery operators work with a military precision and kit that most of us could only dream of having to play with. This is of course the extreme end of the scale.

I'm sure Steve that you would have been professional in your approach. Well done for offering dude!

[Budgie]

They may have been waiting for their accident investigation unit to arrive, depends on the seriousness of the accident and whether any evidence gathering was required for future prosecutions. In which case then they won't have wanted the vehicle moved until photos and measurement etc had been taken.  

[littlepow]

ther recovery operators work with a military precision

They can't be that bad!  :lol:

[martha focker]

They may have been waiting for their accident investigation unit to arrive, depends on the seriousness of the accident and whether any evidence gathering was required for future prosecutions. In which case then they won't have wanted the vehicle moved until photos and measurement etc had been taken.  

i agree.

but well done for offering, your time :D

[simdeb]

we stopped at a accident before the police came and started to direct traffic when the police came the young girl who had caused the accident had been drinking all day but i was able to tell the paremedics who was driving who hurt where and if any of them had any medical problems they needed to know about. when the police came the girl did a runner so we were asked to keep directing the traffic so they could catch her!!!!

got to say never laughed so much
5 police to get her in the police van but she ended up with no trousers on no shoes i'd got my coat on and was still cold!!!!

did feel good to help though

debbie

[Manicminer]

waiting for their accident investigation unit to arrive

I've seen that it can take 4 - 5 hours for this to happen. They need to do their work on top of this.

[Mutz]

Also Steve you could be held responsible for damage caused as well if not pulled correctly.

[V8MoneyPit]

Also Steve you could be held responsible for damage caused as well if not pulled correctly.

Given the car had barrel rolled half way down the road (heaven only knows what speed the were doing  :roll: ) I sincerely doubt they'd have noticed any difference  :lol: But you are right, of course. What a crazy world we live in, eh?

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

waiting for their accident investigation unit to arrive

I've seen that it can take 4 - 5 hours for this to happen. They need to do their work on top of this.

I hate it when that happens, as it usually means that we are kept on late and incur overtime! :roll: That comment was a vain attempt at Emergency Services dark humour! (please note correct usage of Police Vocab Guidelines, by saying 'Dark' instead of the 'B' word)

And before anyone one starts another diatribe of 'don't do enough as it is, get paid too much, useless cops, never do their jobs, blah blah, boring, pointless, etc etc' I get taxed to the hilt on overtime, so I take it as time off if I can to avoid paying anymore tax than I have to.
So, yah boo sucks to you, farty! (Not you Manicminer, but to anyone in general who was thinking about coming out with the usual old pants)

[simdeb]

i think the police get all the brunt when something /some one thinks they have been treated unfairly, i for one felt a bit let down with my son but then again we know about the 'how to' from the government ect, but as people sometimes its really hard to keep comments to yourself which majority of people should do, i wouldn't like to be a police officer yea for the nice things but the rest i wouldn't be able to cope with

Debbie

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

i think the police get all the brunt when something /some one thinks they have been treated unfairly, i for one felt a bit let down with my son but then again we know about the 'how to' from the government ect, but as people sometimes its really hard to keep comments to yourself which majority of people should do, i wouldn't like to be a police officer yea for the nice things but the rest i wouldn't be able to cope with

Debbie

Debbie,
I couldn't agree more with what you have to say and my apologies for dragging the post off topic.

In relation to the original topic namely offers of assistance from the Public.
Common Law, which precedes any of this modern Health and Safety stuff puts the duty on the Public to assist the local Constable.

That, of course is open to interpretation. Is 'assistance' helping out at an RTA scene?  If Life and Limb is at stake, I would say yes.

I prayed for a 4x4 with a winch to come along when I and other officers were at a scene with a vehicle upside down in a water filled ditch with a person inside, very similar to the recent inside. There was nothing we could physically do, due to the Constabulary saying that due to H&S regs we could not have winches on our Defender. The feeling of guilt is still with me.

Assistance also comes in the form of a load of the local lads mucking in with me to track down and catch a pair of burglars in the middle of a remote country area, that resulted in two bad guys being caught after being chased into a marsh by a group of very jarred off farm hands! The bad guys were very pleased to see the Old Bill, I can tell you! The farmers were ready for a 'good old lynching'.

Common sense prevails.

Any offer of help by the Public is always appreciated, especially by me.
You only have to look at the recent cases of the chap in Scotland taking on the terrorist at Glasgow, and also the folk on the underground train on 21.7.05. Top people who deserve public recognition.
The most obvious case of Health and Safety causing a legal and moral paradox is the incident with the lad that drowned in Wigan. A tragic loss of a very, very brave lad.
The PCSO's who attended will now have to cope with the guilt and blame of an entire nation on their shoulders for the rest of their lives.
But who is to blame in this case?
No doubt a scapegoat will be found for this tragic sequence of events.
The PCSO's? Probably, as they did not go in. But think logically about this. The lad goes in and gets into difficulty. A passerby calls the Police, who send the nearest available unit, who are not trained in water rescue.
Some factors come in.
1) The time delay from the initial call to the arrival of the PCSO's on scene.
2) The exact location of the lad.
3) The skills/training they have.

The only training for life saving I had as a Plod was when I first joined in 1991, and the number 1 rule we were told was that to go into the water was the last resort. I have not had any training since,nor have I had any First Aid training since I joined, which is odd considering most of the time we are first on scene.
So who is to blame for that? Training costs money. The bosses have to weigh up what is more important.
The Government would say that it is better to have 'more cost effective' patroling Police prescence on the streets to boost Public confidence.
The 'realists' (cynics is such a negative word :roll: ) would say "What a load of cock. It is a cheaper way to put uniforms on the Streets, which don't really fool anybody".

Again a Catch 22 question.

So do I blame the PCSO's? I feel they were put in a difficult position, ultimately by a Government that has neither the knowledge or understanding of effective management of Emergency services.
But who will be pushed up into the firing line? The Home Secretary? Who do you think?

[crazymac]

I find it incredible that the police management don't make sure that you all have a 1st aid cert and a good knowledge of resucitation!

How hard could it be? get someone on each stations qualified as a trainer assessor, run regular update courses, and borrow from other stations occasionally for exams! not hard.

As for the two PCSO's!!!!! I pity the poor sods, they were put in an impossible position by their management, and they are going to have to live with it

We don't know if they could even swim themselves, but its not their job!! I know of local officers that have been given official warnings for putting themselves at risk by entering the water. there was, I believe, even one die recently in scotland after he entered the sea to a "dispondant" person who swam away from him and was picked up by the lifeboat but they couldn't get to the policeman. How does his family feel? and technically the police could get out of paying the widow a pension as he put himself at risk!!

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

The simple answer is 'litigation'. If per chance we carried out First Aid and ended up with someone who did not make it, the Job could be sued.
Moral duty does not come into the equation.
Again, if the Government actually listened to the bods who do the jobs, they would realise that all the issues could be resolved, but then the various quangos/ commitees/ steering groups would be out of a job.
Another example is changes in road layouts. Statistics are needed to show the road is dangerous, which means that people have to be injured or killed before something is done!

[andycwb]

The simple answer is 'litigation'. If per chance we carried out First Aid and ended up with someone who did not make it, the Job could be sued.

Doesn't the UK have "good samaritan" legislation that basically means a first aider can't be used unless they overstepped the bounds of their training.  If I (as a trained first aider!) break a few of your ribs doing CPR, that's your tough luck, but if I attempt a tracheotomy "because I saw it once on Casualty" then I deserve to be sued!

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

The simple answer is 'litigation'. If per chance we carried out First Aid and ended up with someone who did not make it, the Job could be sued.

Doesn't the UK have "good samaritan" legislation that basically means a first aider can't be used unless they overstepped the bounds of their training.  If I (as a trained first aider!) break a few of your ribs doing CPR, that's your tough luck, but if I attempt a tracheotomy "because I saw it once on Casualty" then I deserve to be sued!

That I don't know, but it sounds interesting. The problem then comes down to the standard and level of training. How could that be quantified and assesed?
Hang on, put the idea up to Government and watch them set up a study/steering group to look into it, then a department staffed by needless office wallahs getting paid loads and we might get some sort of answer in 5 years time. Simple!

[crazymac]

I can see the litigation bit, bosses don't want to pay out :roll:

Thing is... I'm a coastguard, We turn up to incidents with bleeding casualties, non breathing casualties etc and we provide 1st aid till the paramedics get there, thing is that can be 100ft down a cliff!! so we need to stabilise then recover and hand to the ambulance.

sometimes the cas doesn't make it :( thats life unfortunately, but we are trained to do it

There was a case elsewhere in the country where the coastguard team provided cardiac massage until the paramen=dics got there and defib'd the guy, but in the process cracked a couple of ribs, He survived but then tried to sue.............this made it all the way to the courtroom until the judge gave this guy a right dressing down and told him if the team hadn't done what they did then he wouldn't be here!!!! so sod of out his court!!

If that happened more often then perhaps we would not be in the poo we are!!

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

Blimey! A judge who used common sense to make the right decision!

[littlepow]

PSCO's did the right thing. The first rule of first aid is to minimise the chances of increasing casualties and the hazards to yourself.

Sounds a bit selfish, but if they had got in to trouble who would have helped them?

This would have only made the situation worse, as the casualties requiring recueing and treatment would have increased.

The council should look at placing life saving floatation devices near the water in question. I know horse bolted, locking stable, but doesn't meam we shouldn't learn from it.

Police do a good job, just most people only see them when something has gone wrong with their life or when they have broken the law. Niether are occasions when people really want to be overly helpfull.