Mountain rescue safety tips

[hobbit]

The charity Mountain Rescue is struggling to cope with a growing number of hikers getting lost or needing help.

Video report here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7190000/newsid_7195300/7195305.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&ms3=6&ms_javascript=true&nol_storyid=7195305&bbcws=2

Comments anybody?

[Boggert]

It seem they are suffering from Numpties as much as we do in the Police. I suspect Fire and ambulance. suffer as well.

They should all be charged with being idiots. :twisted:

[hobbit]

I think they should donate their bodies to science, if they are that thick imagine what use they could be

Apart from removing from the gene pool that is

I fhtye could make car panels from them, imagine on the saving on dents :lol:

[carbore]

My opinion is that the general public seems to think that "weather" doesn't apply to them, its like they assume nature is something that happens on TV and to people in far off lands.

Although we are obsessed wihth weather as a county we just dont do anything about it, clothes, drains, cars, training, etc.

We also think that we control it and we "made it" in some strange way.  I dont want to get onto the "climate change debate" but im convinced its not all because iv got two landrovers but its like everyone says, I dont like all this rain, stop driving your 4x4 and it ill stop.

In this digital age where everything can be downloaded, ordered on line, delivered, controlled and such like we forget that some things are just bigger than mankind and unless we cant do sod all about it (other than ware a coat, take a map, etc etc)

[ChrisV8]

well up here in t'North every one is getting very peed off with them, best so far I think is "can we have a helicopter please cos we are late for a dinner date"  :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

That's apart from the pillocks who go out without the right gear on Helvellyn in the snow and get blown off Striding Edge, two very recently  :roll: :roll: Then of course with all the rain the stupid kayakers will be out for some fun, two drowned in the last few weeks and Mountain Rescue are expected to turn out at no cost to the idiot. I think it's about time ramblers/kayakers etc have to have compulsory insurance to cover the costs of the Mountain rescue Teams the way things are going in the Lakes there won't be a Team in Patterdale soon as everyone doesn't want to volunteer anymore.

[Range Rover Blues]

I think it's about time ramblers/kayakers etc have to have compulsory insurance to cover the costs of the Mountain rescue Teams the way things are going in the Lakes there won't be a Team in Patterdale soon as everyone doesn't want to volunteer anymore.

That's a fair point, but it'll never happen.  You might as well tell the silly *#!~*$*#*s to take a nice, warm Discovery up the hill with them.  MAke 4x4sa compulsory I say :lol:

[sleeplessparadise]

I reckon they should be sent a bill like you are if you are in an accident and have an ambilance attend........ same thing so bill them!

[lee celtic]

In the ski areas of europe if you need rescuing and you don't have insurance you get charged thousands so if it works there why not here .

I hear the rescue helicopter several times a week living at the bottom of Snowdon and a know a good few people in the rescue team and they all say they don't mind going out to rescue people who have gone up with all the right gear but have got into trouble with falls, injuries or even just a bit lost but have stayed still and waited for a guided down ,What really does their heads in are the mountain muppets who walk up at lunch time in shorts and t shirts then get caught out when the temp drops when the sun goes down..or ring for help then keep walking about so when the team arrives theres now one there..

I think insurance is the way to go..

[Disco Matt]

IIRC the French mountain rescue teams do charge - I've heard tales of climbers having to produce either evidence of insurance or a credit card before they'll take them off the mountain.

I wouldn't be surprised if in some highly active areas Mountain Rescue teams start talking to 4x4 Response groups - in some situations I can see that the two could be mutually supporting. Certainly they should be in contact if they're not already.

[Silvery Thing]

Make the misuse of the service a chargable event.... anyone that goes out ill prepared and then dials 999 should pay :)

[vtrdaz]

I agree - they should be sent a bill - but only if they are found to have been negligent in the lack of equipment they have with them/weather they've gone out in etc.
Should a genuine accident be charged for? - I think not - and as far as i know people aren't sent bills from the ambulance service/police/fire after being called out ,  but i stand to be corrected on this.

Should we have compulsory insurance for every pastime people have?

I have other hobbies that include kiteboarding and have a third party liability insurance to cover me for any injuries or damage that i could inflict whilst enjoying this sport , this insurance is not compulsory , but you'd be stupid not to take it out.

Should we all have insurance "just in case" of an accident? - compulsory or not?

Darren

[Wolfie]

Charging is a right can of worms that I, for one, don't want opened  [-X

If charging is introduced, it will mean that insurance will be necessary before you go out into the mountains, just look at the number of person hours that even a fairly routine rescue can involve and then consider if you could afford to pay if something happened. Will the insurance companies then be happy with volunteers performing the rescue or will they insist that rescues are conducted by employees of the statutiory body responsivle for land based SAR? Are there enough suitably qualified Police officers to carry out this duty, especially if it also includes the underground rescues? Who would farmers then call on when animals are in need of rescue which is currently undertaken by the volunteer teams?

Would it also lead to similar situations as have occured abroad where the rapid transfer of the patient to hospital was secondary to the arguments between teams as to who would get on the TV coverage carrying the stretcher?

Overall I would much rather it stayed as it is now, with hopefully more education as to the risks of the mountains.

Search and Rescue Framework for theUnited Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Cave Rescue Organisation

[sleeplessparadise]

and as far as i know people aren't sent bills from the ambulance service/police/fire after being called out ,  but i stand to be corrected on this.

We have been billed twice at least to my knowledge, first time I was 8 months pregnant when some idiot cut us up at a round-a-bout and I had to be taken in for x rays etc.  Second time o/h hit the central reservation on the M1 in a recovery truck, a month later we were billed for the ambulance and for the lamp post he hit. Admittedly the insurance paid out but we were billed.

[lee celtic]

Three lads in our old bike club were charged £15 each for an ambulance ride after a crash  :roll: deemed not serious enough for an ambulance by the hospital but the police called it and insisted they went..

[vtrdaz]

Surely if you're 8 months pregnant  and in an RTA that constitutes a "neccessary" call out - being billed in that situation is ridiculous - what do we pay our council tax for?

[winchman]

Why haven't we got a state ran Mountain Rescue teams???
After all we do pay plenty of tax?
I dont feel enough is done to educate people in common sense

[vtrdaz]

I think we do have state run teams - i believe the RAF have some dotted around the country

[TDi90]

its not RTA anymore  =; [-X

its and RTC - road traffic collision

correct me if im wrong 

[Range Rover Blues]

I've been sent, not a bill exactly, but a letter chasing up details for a car accident I was involved in.  The NHS wanted insurance details so they could recoupt he cost of my treatment.

Now it's not compulsory but if they are chasing me for details of where to send the bill then why shouldn't other people if they have brought it on themselves.

I understand the arguament about mountain rescue being volunteers, but not everything involved is for free.  i have mates who climb and I asked them why they offer to join mountain rescue. The answer is simple, "becasue if it were me i'd want someone to come get me".

That's all well and good, but a lot of the people now calling on their services are in no position to reciprocate, even if it ever occured to them.

The resources are becoming overstretched.  If there were motor vehicles involved you can bet your shirt that charging would be the answer to everything.

[Wolfie]

Still don't like the idea.

Plus there is the question of whether the idiots who go out completely unprepared already would bother to get insurance before they went, or would those of us who have a clue find that our premiums contain a loading to cover the uninsured, just the same as our car insurance does.

[Range Rover Blues]

I don't like the idea either, but mountain resuce are volunteers and at the moment they are being taken advantage of by people who obvioulsy don't know better.

[Boggert]

its not RTA anymore  =; [-X

its and RTC - road traffic collision

correct me if im wrong 

Its a RTI "Road traffic incident" Not that we actually bother saying that, it Crash, or what ever comes to mind.

[Disco Matt]

I wonder if a decent TV advert campaign might help? Something nicely shocking - maybe show someone shivering with apparent hypothermia followed by a caption "Antarctica? No, Snowdon. British weather can kill the poorly equipped".

Sad part is, some people will ignore all the warning signs/leaflets/adverts you can throw at them!

[vtrdaz]

I think a good idea - and one we adopt - be it MR , air ambulance , RNLI etc ,  whenever you see a collection - make a small donation , however small.
You personally might not need them , but somebody you know might.
In my eyes it's a small donation well spent - even though it is more likely to cover the rescues of the ill equipped and stupid............

[hobbit]

The thing is they are like the RNLI solely funded by donations, unlike the government paid services

Can a charity charge for their services?

Yes the ambulance service can, as has been discussed

Also the foreign mountain rescue groups mentioned above are they charity or funded another way?

[Ja1983]

......I dont feel enough is done to educate people in common sense

exactly, it should be taught in schools... the world is rapidly declining in to a plague of idiotic morons!
you only have to look at kids TV/fashion/music to see this.......













......i think i`ve just got old! :dance:

[Disco Matt]

......i think i`ve just got old! :dance:

Hey, I'm 25 and I agree with you!

[Devon-Rover]

People are just not educated in the dangers the upland areas of the UK can pose. In this nanny state common sense has been eroded as some of the population live by the daft rules non stop and don't think for themselves. They don't see a sign saying that stepping out into an area that is even vaugely remote Could kill you because of this very unpredictable thing called weather. So they just carry on in there everyday clothes thinking nothing can go wrong as i haven't been told.

A few years ago when i was an explorer scout we undertook a trip to snowdonia. And the amount of muppets out on snowdon wearing clothing which would be more High street than High Hills. It was unbelievable the people walking past us in just trainers and causal clothes and here was us a group of 9 fully kitted out for whatever could happen.
I still think what did happen to those who was going up as we came down as it was closing in behind us. Perhaps it was just because it was a bit of a 'honey pot' for the grockels to go out. As on Tryfan we saw only a few others and they were dressed for the occasion.
A year later in the Brecon Beacons we were yet again confronted by at least 25+ people all under dressed and prepared having lunch on top of Pen-y-Fan. And again on the decent past Craig fan Ddu towards the Neuadd reservoirs it was raining in a way only the welsh know how.
Now my home stamping ground is Dartmoor and as such i know the area very well. And i think in 8 years either myself or the group i have been in has been asked a few times as to our current location and where such a place is. Some people have half a clue and are only a few K out. but a couple noticeable times they have been a few tens of K out.
I await the day when i actually meet some wally wondering around aimlessly in their sunday best on the moor. It's going to happen unfortunatly.  :( And whilst haven't yet, the day i do meet someone under prepared on the hill i would actively point out that they are putting themselves in great danger and should leave and come back when they are ready.
Some just don't get the concept that Death is quite an easy thing to happen when it turns nasty.  :doh:

[Defender]

Why haven't we got a state ran Mountain Rescue teams???

Having had a talk at one of our Land Rover Club meetings from one Mountain Rescue team, this question came up.
Their answer was that they prefer to be charity funded rarther than govenment funded, as being govenment funded would result in a "Pen-Pusher" in Whitehall, deciding where the money had to be spent, with no knowledge of the service & where the money really needed to go.
At least with charitable donations, each individual rescue team decides exactly where to spend any money.

[crazymac]

Will the insurance companies then be happy with volunteers performing the rescue or will they insist that rescues are conducted by employees of the statutiory body responsivle for land based SAR? Are there enough suitably qualified Police officers to carry out this duty, especially if it also includes the underground rescues? Who would farmers then call on when animals are in need of rescue which is currently undertaken by the volunteer teams?

As one of the members of a Coastguard Rescue Team, I think I can talk with a bit of knowledge here?

Land Based SAR is initiated by the Police, who is not equipped nor trained in sufficient numbers to be an adequate resource in the UK. To that end they utilise the Mountain Rescue teams, SARDA (Search and Rescue Dogs Association) and other assets as required. The overall choice of these organisations is to not charge, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, not be government run!! They see the Coastguard Rescue Service and don't want to go down the same route!!

Maritime Search And Rescue is co-ordinated by the Maritime And Coastguard Agency (MCA) who are all Full time, PAID people that do not go out on rescues! The rescues and searches are all done by Coastguard Rescue Teams (CRT's) (of which there are around 350 in the UK) if on the coastline, Cliffs, esturies etc and if the search/ rescue is at sea then the RNLI Lifeboats are tasked BY THE MCA!! (if they need the RNLI, the MCA "Requests" the launching of the appropriate boat) Both these organisations work VERY closely together as often they are on the same rescues http://www.mypembrokeshire.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2007/08/09/46bb11546483a

In many ways, the CRT's are like the RNLI, in that they are all employed in other careers and carry a pager to alert them to a rescue, at which point they drop everything and go running. The difference, is that the CRT's get paid (Minimum wage incidentally!) for the time they are out on the shout. Most will be paid much more than minimum by their employers and do not get paid by them while on Coastguard Duties, so are losing money for doing a rescue!

The UK Government have a statutory duty to provide search and rescue in the UK and territorial waters, and cannot charge for that service! I know for a fact round here that the RNLI lifeboat dangle the collection box under the nose of rescued parties!! (Quite right in my book, how else are they to fund what they do?) The MCA are government funded as an agency and run HM Coastguard as the rescue wing of the organisation.

In addition to this, the recent flooding in Gloucester saw teams from the RNLI and HM Coastguard assisting in duties there. There was six Coastguard Vehicles in attendance in the area during the floods with some 60 members of the CRT's who had all been allowed time off from their employers to get paid £5.35 and hour to assist with this.

The RNLI DO PAY their crews!! but it is payed as expenses, which allows them to retain their voluntary status!! As far as I know, the Mountain Rescue teams are not paid anything!  

In addition you also have various rescue helecopters around the UK, some of them are RAF who are there for military searches, but will assist with civilian ones if not busy! and around 5 HM Coastguard Helecopters in areas where there is no military cover (such as Portland and the Isle of Lewis)

There is a lot of confusion from the public about the MCA and RNLI, with the names being interchangeable! That is not the case, they are VERY separate organisations. Likewise there is confusion about the MCA and HM Coastguard! The MCA DO NOT do rescues they co-ordinate them, HM Coastguard are effectively paid volunteers and they DO, DO the rescues!

Back on topic, there are any amount of ill prepared people both on the hills and the coast that rely on the emergency services being there to pick up the pieces for them, often they do not realise that they are in the main volunteers that want to give something back to their communities.