Topic: Have I done the head gasket (Read 3654 times)

clover · « **on:** February 04, 2008, 18:25:02 »

Hi

Right this is what happened this morning.

I came out to the disco (200TDi) as usual this morning. Turned the key and it turned over once then hydrauliced briefly and then fired into life. Weird I thought to myself... its never done that before...

backed off the drive and noticed there was a lot of blue/white smoke coming out the exhaust. Drove up the road and the clouds of smoke out the back were massive. Nearly caused an accident! I went about 1/4 of a mile wondering if I had not better phone up my mate and get him to tow me to the garage as I'll get nicked for this!

Then as soon as it started it stopped. Drove another couple of miles no problem. Came out from work to move it after about 45mins-1hr. Small cloud of blue smoke that cleared once I revved it.

Came out to it at the end of the day. No smoke.

Parked it on the drive and took the air filter off to put the new one on. Reversed it off the drive. Big clouds of blue/white smoke again. As soon as I accelerated up the road it cleared. Came back switched it off started it again no smoke!.

Its not overheating. There does not appear to be any more pressure in the water than there always has been.

The senior mechanic at work reckons its the head gasket failing. Whilst I trust his experience he does not always get it right and I don't want to pull the head off to not find anything wrong!

Anybody got any suggestions?

I hate diagnosing faults with diesels as its all a bit of a magic art to me. Know where I am with petrol engines.

Cheers

Stumpy

Range Rover Blues · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2008, 18:30:46 »

Take it to a specialsit and ask for a leak-down test. You pressurise the cylinder and look for the leaks, simple but effective. i don't have the tool yet or I'd offer.

chris9119 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2008, 20:19:28 »

John

I have the pressure testing kit if needed. Are you losing water?

johnpirate · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2008, 20:34:18 »

Mine did this before Christmas.It was the head gasket it had blown from number 3 pot to a push rod hole.It was then pressurising the sump.And pumping the oil up and it chuffed like a steam train from the oil filler as well.

clover · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2008, 21:30:37 »

Hi

Don't appear to be loosing coolant.

Will take the filler cap off tomorrow whilst running and see if its chuffing.

General opinion seems to be that its possibly between one of the cylinders and an oil way and the reason why it stops once warm is due to expansion with heat.

I am going to see if I can get it on the ramp at work Thursday and pull the head off.

Ho hum...

johnpirate · « **Reply #5 on:** February 04, 2008, 21:43:32 »

Does it get warm climbing hills and you can bring the temp down by putting the heater in the car on.

Range Rover Blues · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2008, 04:11:09 »

Quote from: chris9119 on February 04, 2008, 20:19:28

John

I have the pressure testing kit if needed. Are you losing water?

You are a thoroughly decent chap ;) , Pinky if you can take Chris up on his offer, it's non-invasive and quite informative.

clover · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2008, 15:43:38 »

Quote from: johnpirate on February 04, 2008, 21:43:32

Does it get warm climbing hills and you can bring the temp down by putting the heater in the car on.

No its not getting hot at all. But it does smoke like a polish power station!

I think I am convinced enough to accept the head gasket needs changing.

Going to rip the head off it this week and see what I find.

Range Rover Blues · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2008, 18:49:21 »

It'll be worth having the head tickled whilst it's off if you can.

clover · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2008, 16:48:44 »

Do you mean skimmed?

Was not sure if it would need it seeing as its not overheated?

Cheers

John

Range Rover Blues · « **Reply #10 on:** February 06, 2008, 18:23:04 »

It's not worth the risk, a light skim will give a good surface for the new gasket and I'd put mone on it being slilghtly dished even if it hasn't overheated.

in theory once it's been used, heted (warped) then skimmed true again, a reconn head should be less prone to head gasket failure in the future. In theory :-k.

Ja1983 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 07, 2008, 21:29:17 »

Quote from: Range Rover Blues on February 06, 2008, 18:23:04

It's not worth the risk, a light skim will give a good surface for the new gasket and I'd put mone on it being slilghtly dished even if it hasn't overheated.

in theory once it's been used, heted (warped) then skimmed true again, a reconn head should be less prone to head gasket failure in the future. In theory :-k.

so long as you use a decent quality head gasket, i`d agree... in theory

TDi90 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 07, 2008, 22:07:00 »

when you say decent make... what do you mean genuine?!
how much for a genuine one?
R

clover · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2008, 12:52:11 »

Hi

Got the head off Pinky.

Had a good look at it. The head gasket looks fine. I can't see anything obviously wrong with it. Which was not what I was expecting at all!

Cylinder 3 has a large quantity of engine oil in it and was obviously hydraulic lock on that oil. It was in on a compression cycle.

IF the cylinder head gasket is OK (ha ha) how else could that amount of engine oil get in the cylinder? Should I be replacing the valve seals just in case one of them has failed spectacularly?

Ho hum...

John

Range Rover Blues · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2008, 16:20:55 »

I'm a little confused, the valve would have been able to open no matter how much oil was in there, but the engine would not have been able to run through the compression stroke, so was your engine hydraulically locked?

I suspect that in fact it found it's way in there whilst you were stripping the engine, which is better news for you.

However re-reading the post I notice you have had hydraulic lock/blue smoke, so perhaps the gasket was just on it's way out and as you released the pressure you got a lot more than usual.

If so you need to look very closely for any dark marks on the gasket and block/head faces. It won't be carbonised like a blow-by because it's oil, so there will be very little tell-tale marking.

Otherwise you have a serious problem. You shouldn't get that much oil down a valve stem even with no oil sea on it at all, so where else can it be coming from?

clover · « **Reply #15 on:** February 10, 2008, 17:05:10 »

Hi

Last post was not quite correct. I have modified it!

Yes it was hydraulic locked. I came to start it again to charge the battery up a bit after it had stood for 3 days (for when I came to re-start it after I'd done the head gasket) and it turned a quarter of a turn and locked solid.

When I think about it you are indeed correct for it to have a hydraulic lock on cylinder 3 then the valves must have been closed for the compression.

Trouble is cylinder 3 is the one that is at the top and cylinder 2 is not full of water or oil and its too low in the bore to have locked up.

My worry is that its actually the turbo that is the problem and that its chucked all this oil into the cylinder.

Still its not a big job and its going to be better for having had a head gasket but I really should check the intercooler I suppose to see if its full of engine oil?

Cheers

John

Range Rover Blues · « **Reply #16 on:** February 10, 2008, 17:31:15 »

Yes, turbo good point. If the turbo had failed though I'd expect you to be getting a runaway engine (runs on it' sown oil, then explodes) rather than this, somehow the oil is only running into the engine after it has stopped :-k

Easy to tell, pull the top intercooler hose off and check for oil. With the engine running you will soon find outif any oil is being blown through the intercooler.

clover · « **Reply #17 on:** February 10, 2008, 17:50:39 »

top pipe has a little heavy oil in it but nothing more than you would expect and certainly not any engine oil!

Suppose I can out the turbo idea to bed.

Only other things I guess could be a cracked head or block?

May get the head pressure tested to be on the safe side.

if it still isn't right when i put it together then I may well be found crying in my beer!

Range Rover Blues · « **Reply #18 on:** February 10, 2008, 17:57:52 »

Just noticed it#s a 200TDi too, I know how much a new head will cost :'(

On the plus side, I strongly suspect it won't be a leaking head, there isn't any oil under pressure anywhere near No.3 cylinder AFAIK.

Have you noticed any oily deposits on the back of No.3 inlet valve or in the port, or inside the plenum come to that?

clover · « **Reply #19 on:** February 15, 2008, 19:48:15 »

Hi

Okay here is the news...

I got the head pressure tested and it was fine.

I had it skimmed (did not really need it but I insisted!).

I out it all back together and its the same as before.

Still getting massive clouds of blue/white smoke under load when its cold.

Its fine when its warmed up.

So I know its not the head or the head gasket.

I don't think its the turbo as its not running on and there is no sign of engine oil in the inlet (just some small bits of heavy oil).

The injectors on cylinders 2 and 3 and the glow plugs were covered in engine oil when I removed them.

So anyone got any suggestions?

I guess a leak down test?

I fear that its maybe curtains for this engine.

The bores did not look worn at all on it and its only done 123K which is not excessive for one of these engines.

I dunno what to do next. Its got me stumped it has :-(

Guardian. · « **Reply #20 on:** February 15, 2008, 20:08:51 »

NOT GOT BUST RIngs has it? dont see how oil can get ito the bores if everything is a1 up top as id definately is now, or block split, not good that one ive just been there.

clover · « **Reply #21 on:** February 15, 2008, 21:03:53 »

Could be either I suppose.

No way of telling until I strip it all down.

May well be worth me getting a rebuilt short engine and start again.

Oh well... looks like I'll not be driving any green roads in the near future.

davidlandy · « **Reply #22 on:** February 15, 2008, 21:25:27 »

did you look at the bores John?

any scoring , could you move the pistons sideways in the bores?

my bro in laws 200 went this way - turned out to be bore/rings kapputt, compressions where well down.

clover · « **Reply #23 on:** February 15, 2008, 21:37:12 »

Well I did not check 2 and 3 for scoring on the bores as they were at TDC. 1 and 4 were fine. There was no noticeable free play in any of the pistons.

I would have thought if it was rings/bore it would smoke all the time and not just when cold? Would it not use oil as well? This is what gets me as it does not seem to be using oil. Until it packed up it never used a drop.

Think I need to just accept the fact that I need to either totally rebuild or maybe look for a decent replacement engine for it.

clover · « **Reply #24 on:** February 17, 2008, 16:18:05 »

Ok

Since my initial issues with smoke I've started it from cold a few times and driven it around a bit and it seems to be better.

I've not had a recurrence of the problem with the smoke. I am hoping this was just engine oil that had got into the injectors or something???

I'll have to see what it does if I leave it standing for a few days.

However I do still have an issue. I am occasionally getting smoke on tick over. As soon as you rev it up it goes. It does not do it all the time. It seems to be white smoke which suggests to me its possibly a mixture issue? under fueling at tick over?

Its not massive amounts of smoke but it never used to do this.

Anybody got any suggestions?

I've put some injector cleaner in the fuel so am waiting to see what that does.

I understand on the 200TDi their is a smoke screw on the pump you can adjust that controls off boost fueling? But I don't understand what it does or how it works or if it will help.

Cheers

John

Range Rover Blues · « **Reply #25 on:** February 18, 2008, 15:39:33 »

The smoke screw is just part of the "balancing act" of setting up the fuel pump, it stops the pump over fueling too early or at part throttle, it won't cure the white smoke.

If it smell acrid then it could be caused by timing, ours does it when the fuel filter is blocked (by deposits in some bioderv I put in

), if they are more whispey they could be steam, but then it's cold and humid at the moment so it's going to make condensation when it's cold.

clover · « **Reply #26 on:** February 18, 2008, 19:19:32 »

Hi

It does seem to be getting better the more I use it.

I got a puff of smoke last night as I pulled out on a round about but nothing today.

I have changed the oil and filter and put a new fuel filter on it.

I think the injectors were full of oil and its taken a bit of time for them to clear out.

Been told that crap in the injectors can cause them to not spray properly and when they do this it can result in white smoke.

Dunno if that's true or not but I've put a load of injector cleaner in the tank.

It certainly seems much better which is good news. I am feeling a bit more confident that maybe somehow or other I have sorted the problem. Maybe it was the head gasket after all...

Ja1983 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 18, 2008, 19:46:29 »

do you use veg oil or bio-derv at all? mine currently on 60:40 bioderv:veg, and with the recent weather its not a happy bunny..

this morning gave a reluctant and spluttery start, with lightblue/white clouds until i got onto the main road (but stunk of deep fat fryer, so must just be the veg oil gellifying in the lines)

also supermarket fuel isnt the best quality, and if you`ve run it low on fuel, you may well have slurped up some scum from the bottom of the tank.. my fourtrak needed new fuel lines after captain save-a-quid here decided to see how far below the red the needle would go... :dance:

keep an eye on it but budget for a new/rebuild engine.. never lost.

also if there was as you say a lot of oil in the pot, it will still be on its way through... exhaust for example will take a while to burn out any deposits.

clover · « **Reply #28 on:** February 18, 2008, 21:16:54 »

Nope don't do bio-derv...

As you say I am hoping that mostly its crap in the system working its way out. Could also be some dirty fuel. I am well know for bending the needle round the empty bar. However I thought that was what the fuel filter was for :-)

Ja1983 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 18, 2008, 21:29:24 »

in theory it is, but what do you have before it gets to the fuel filter....?

...yep, long length of narrow pipe!
could be worth cleaning the sedimeter (good luck!) as who knows what it has been expected to run on over the years

News:

AuthorTopic: Have I done the head gasket (Read 3654 times)

Guardian.