Breakdown - ? Turbo - HELP!!!!!

[cubbie]

Help!!!

Bad news - Daniel has broken down :-(

We were heading down the road from Leuchars to St Andrews; I turned off at a roundabout and suddenly had a total loss of power; white smoke (with no other coloured smoke) was emitted from the rh side vent, and I think the exhaust as well.  Once I had rolled to a stop, I could not re-start it - the battery then started to go as well.

Water and Oil levels were fine; the engine temperature was also fine.  There were no other dash indications, and no obvious spray or discoloured deposits over the engine or in the coolant tank, although I did not look at the head.
However, I have had 3 vehicles have a head gasket go, and this did not seem 'typical' of that type of failure (but I don't want to jump to an incorrect conclusion, so if I'm wrong, please tell me!).

A Land Rover mechanic happened to pass and pulled over to see if he could help (Hurrah!).  He had a look and also seemed to think it was unlikely to be the HG, and thought it was more likely to be either the injection or the turbo; furthermore, he said that if the smoke was only white, then the most likely thing was the turbo, which I agree with.

Most annoyingly of all, I waliterally just about to sign up for a 4x4 driving refresher and (new) mechanics course (on my phonecalls to make list for tomorrow!); which means that although I can drive Daniel, I don't have a huge amount of mechanical skill at the moment.  However, I have to start somewhere!

Can anyone advise me on where to start, and some of the other possible damage I may need to look out for? 

Daniel has been dropped outside an LR dealership overnight, however, I see this as an (unnecessarily?) costly way to go, even just for parts...

Thank you,

One miserable owner  :'(

[TDi90]

hi there,
welcome!
dont worry, landies break down, it what they do best  :roll: but i guess you know that now.
the best way to learn mechanics is to practice. tinker with things, learn by doing!
Rob

[Tommo]

not sure who this land rover mechanic was but surely he should know that it will still run with a destroyed turbo.

what engine do you have?

[Ser3 J]

Its a 300Tdi - bought only a few months ago (couple of 1000 miles ago) from a well known dealer near Bristol with ....... 'Man' in the title.  It was supposed to have had a service including recent timing belt etc.  Mileage on engine is under 80K i think.  I havnt seen it since this incident but it does sound like a head-gasket?? GOOD LUCK Cubbie - hopefully it isnt too expensive  [-o<

[Tommo]

but it should still run with a blown head gasket. and more often than not it will suffer coolant loss.

[Rasbo]

but it should still run with a blown head gasket. and more often than not it will suffer coolant loss.

which when you undo the sump plug goes all over your face :doh: :D

[cubbie]

well... thanks for all the tips and stuff...

I'm more than a little nervous as I'm about to start working on him...  but I'm sure it'll be ok.  AT the very least I'll get to find my way around the engine this way, after all, it can't get any worse!  Also I found what looks like a great step-by-step guide to maintenance (difflock site) - I hope!  It could be a long weekend, but hey, that's the joy of LRs!

 :)

[extreme90]

if the turbo had died, the engine would restart
remove the top intercooler hose and try to start the engine.....that way it eliminated the turbo from the induction cycle
id be more inclinded to be looking on the diesel side of the engine
cant say as the timing belt has gone.....as the engine doesnt usually smoke...just stop's running without running then wont re-start....however they do sound funny when cranking over
 remove the oil filler and get someone to crank it....see if the rockers move
it could very well be that thwe timing has jumped whilst coming onto overun on the round about
even a sheared cam sprocket retaining bolt ( happend to me.....twice  :shock: )
did you suffer a slow loss of power, or did the engine just die out of the blue

[cubbie]

Well, despite my thoughts when it originally happened, I've moved away from the turbo idea, after a bit of logical thought and a few basic diagnostics...

It was definitely a sudden loss of power, not slow...  it was all I could do to get him to roll up close to the verge.  The more I look into it, the more inclined I am to think its the timing belt, especially having done some checking and found there is a historic 'issue' with these on 200 and 300's.  It does sounds funny when you try to turn it over, but it definitely won't start.  And there wasn't much smoke...  Cam sprocket, eh?  Hadn't considered that...   :-k

[thermidorthelobster]

Wasn't the timing belt a recall on early 300tdis because it ran wonky and shredded?  If it hasn't been done, you might have recourse to the dealer, who should have known better.  Just a thought.

[cubbie]

yep.. there was a big recall issue and I have found some guidance on how to suss that out :

http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/300TDi_timing_belt.htm

Clearly, I'm checking this out, just to make sure, but the belt was changed when I bought it, as per Ser3J's entry earlier.

But!  From a few conversations, and trying to start it again today, and listening to how it sounds a bit more  closely, it is definitely trying to start, there's the ticking noise, then the system seems to be trying to feed in fuel/air, but seems to be missing the final 'bit' to make it fire up...  As a result, I am coming round to the idea that the problem could be on the fuel side.  I already checked there is pressure, and that there doesn't seem to be air in the fuel lines.  However, apparently, there is a possibility that there is an issue with the fuel injector assembly...maybe as simple as some loose bolts?  The other option I was wondering about is the chance that water could have got into the fuel - I was thinking that this might explain the white, rather than black, smoke experienced when it broke down?

Am I completely heading off in the wrong direction?

I'm assuming the only way to check this is to drain the fuel completely, then try with some fresh diesel?  The other thing I am then thinking is that if it is that, then where has the water come from - that would be a more worrying prospect, methinks, and I'm guessing I would need to check all the various fuel feeds - is there anywhere in particular that could be prone, ie where the system could ingest water somehow?

Thanks for ongoing tips and stuff!

[Landy Andy]

Can you not run hose from a jerry can to pump?

Andy

[cubbie]

well, its update time...

Took the fuel filter apart, checked it, replaced it, got the same old problem when trying to start him up - ie it didn't!

Gonna get the battery checked as I don't think its in good nick and that won't be helping, but that's still not going to solve the original problem...

So I'm right back to the possible belt issue, so that will be the next task...

[Xtremeteam]

when i looked at it the tbelt was still connected & turning the Inj pump as it should do, however it may have stripped a few teeth & thus be out of timing which after a bit of though may be the case,

if you want me to i can toddle up with the disco & some tools & see about stripping the front of the engine & check the belt, wont be till next week as im away at manby thursday onwards till monday

Mike

[cubbie]

Well, I've been out in the sunshine doing a few more diagnostics, and I think I have found the problem, if not the cause...

Took the inspection cover off, intending to turn the engine over (breaker bar at the ready - I've been buying BIG tools!  ) to check the rockers.  However, on closer inspection I found that 5/8 of the push rods are bent, some pretty badly too.  Pics to follow...
Also in the well area around them, they had these little 'cap' guys - again, pics to follow...

So, I checked the manual, and it seems to indicate that this sort of thing is due to the gasket going.  (eek - I have had 3 previous vehicles with this and it was the fault I dreaded most.  Oddly enough - never got the rapid temperature rise I saw with the others)
However, the timing belt warning info I found says that bent pushrods are a symptom, so perhaps it could just be that alone?

Could I have ended up with both?   [-o<

[cubbie]

if you want me to i can toddle up with the disco & some tools & see about stripping the front of the engine & check the belt, wont be till next week as im away at manby thursday onwards till monday

Mike

Mike - if you fancy coming by that would be fab :-)  I should have some under-cover workspace squared away in the next day or so and clearly Daniel and I won't be going anywhere this week or next weekend...  I guess my last entry probably gives you an idea of the parts I'm going to be looking for...

[cubbie]

right, those pics...

first there is one of the 'little cap guys' I found in the well around the top of the rods, there was one that had shifted right across to the other side of the whole bay...

then a pic of the well where I found it...

[cubbie]

and a couple more...

the first is the engine with the cover off... how pretty...

and the second is a better shot of one of the bent rods - impressive huh?!!

[DogVanMan]

No sure how head gasket would bend pushrods mate..?

Still sounds like cam belt failure to me.. piston hits valve, forces transmit through rocker and bend the rod, no? I don't know if valves do hit pistons when a 300tdi loses belt drive but that would do it, I'm afraid..

G

[Rasbo]

if its a cam failer, then when you turn over the key you should just hear the starter motor spinning, or turn the crank pully round and look if the push rods move up and down

[cubbie]

No sure how head gasket would bend pushrods mate..?

Yeah, good point...  I jsut re-checked the manual and in my frenzy of research earlier I didn't read it too thoroughly, got a couple of paragraphs a bit mixed up! 

So cam / belt it is then, guess I'm going to be doing some *slightly* bigger work next weekend!


oh, and given that I am totally new to all this stuff, I may well make the odd goof in my ideas / diagnostics etc - so thanks for helping point me in the right direction all - keep 'em coming!

[Rasbo]

ive pm' you my number, if you get stuck or just want a 2nd opinion then give us a bell as ive rebuilt quite a few heads after cambelt failure

[Tommo]

Replace the timing belt and the pushrods and it should be fine.

[Porny]

Isn't the 90 still under warranty??

As they fitted the cambelt (?) they should really offer a warranty on the work done, even if they don't warranty the rest of the car!!  In fact, the cambelt itself should have a 12 month warranty!

I probably wouldn't get them to fix it (might as well use a couple of monkeys) but I would try and get all the parts out of them if nothing else!! - if not, threaten to take then to trading standards!!

The work carried out, was not fit for purpose!! Esp. after 1000 miles.


In all honesty, fixing wouldn't be that hard - easily done over a weekend.

If it was me, I'd use a complete 'upgrade' cambelt kit and do the full works - making sure it's all done properly!!  Then a new set of push rods/caps and away you go.


Ian

[Priglet]

Get some advice from your local Trading Standards od Consumer Direct (if you have it in Scotland) http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/

as the Sale of Goods Act should cover this, see here for further info,

http://www.berr.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html

If the belt lasted less than a year and only a few thousand miles it's not hard to argue it wasn't fit for purpose.