New engine isnt as great as I was hoping.

[muddyjames]

I have been on a long journey which was mostly morotways and I got 23mpg. I did about 300miles. I wadnt chuffed at all. I thought an engine that had done 100k less than my old one and runs alot smoother and was an ex police cars so lots of servicing would have been alot better.

Towing the caravan last weekend was great once I got to 60mph but getting there took forever. I found I had to put the auto box lever into 2 at a junction then once it got to about 3k of revs in 2 I would then move it to 3 then 3k revs into D. I found that was best for pulling away. Coming home in the winds yesterday I was struggling to keep at 50mph and sometimes saw55mph but saw 60mph on dual carriage ways / motorway twice for about 5 minutes each time.

Is the 300tdi engine really this bad on mpg and power and I am expecting more from it that it will never have or is there something I am not doing right?

Would be tempted to sell it soon but the value of it is so ow I wouldnt be able to afford a shogun or td5 to replace it. It has 12months and a few days mot on it and 6 months tax and a few off road bits on it and a few off road marks. I would probably be lucky to get £1400 for it I guess. It's an M reg with 190k on the clock (new engine has done 90k) and is a 300tdi auto.

Anyone got any ideas as I am getting cheesed off with having such a poor towing vehicle. Starting to think my series vehicles were better!! :lol:

[Jim-Willy]

My Dads 300Tdi auto disco is a nail, very slow to take off.....  My Defender TDi auto is far perkier with the lower xfer box but she has had it at 65-70 unless you screw her...

[Frankie-Boy]

James,

Its a long shot but try changing the fuel filter, it won't do any harm but it might do some good.  :)

[bilge rat]

hi james , not up on the auto but have heard they are less economical than the manual, i get about 27 when towing . is your auto an edc or before that . is the pump timing crack on . iff its running smooth and low on performance it may be out a little. noisey powefull and smokey itt;ll be a little out the other way . there easy to check . i know with your recent luck you will be concerned about messing too much but has the egr been blanked . did you clean the intercooler after your last problem. as said fuell filter / air filter, check the basics first .then go from there . ive tweeked both pumps on mine without going daft or without any probs makes a hell of a difference . just  a thought  ?..alan....

[peasey]

exactly as bilge rat said,i cant comment on towing yet as i havent but my 300 tdi is not quick off the mark but fast enough to pull out quickly at a busy round about,im getting about 32mpg with no pump mods and only the egr blanked,when i did this i cleaned out ALL the pipework and intercooler with petrol.Mine has got 120,000 on the clock i have had it up to 95mph and she will sit at 60mph all day high winds or not so somethings definatly a miss,have you checked out turbo hoses?to be honest mate my moneys on the timing though.

[Disco-Ron]

I've not long had my 300, and when it was totally standard, it would cruise at 100, on a private road of course..... i was shocked at that i must say, won;t be that quick now, as i've fitted 33's and a few other goodies...!!!...:)

[Range Rover Blues]

I've got to say timing, either fuel pump or heaven forbid valve timing.

Ubnless of course you have missed off something silly like the turbo to fuel pump pressure pipe, or an intercooler leak.  I've had an intercooler pipe bust and the thing drove like a 1.1.

Now my sister has a 300TDi auto and tows with it, it's not as fast as her V8 was but it does the job nicely and gets reasonable economy with her at the wheel.

Our 300 manual will do about 27 mpg with me driving and it's no slouch I can tell you.

[Mr Alford]

we have a 200tdi manual disco(the toy) and a sensible 300tdi es for towing the horse box auto of course when i bought both cars i changed all the filters on them first thing i did and the one at the back right by the fuel tnk this one is renown for blocking up, i made shure both fuel pumps were working efficently i ended up cranking the turbo up onthe 200 to bring it up to the same power as the 300 but as for towing a horse box which once fully laden with 2 horses is similar weight to a caravan maybe even heavier it flew up hills as if they werent even there keeping speeds up long hills of around 50-60 which is good but cruizing at 70 is a piece of cake u must have some problems

[muddyjames]

thanks everyone so far for your replys. This is a long post but all your comments have been replied too below.  :D

My Dads 300Tdi auto disco is a nail, very slow to take off..... 

I have found mine is too now I have no kick down for the auto box. I tend to hold it in 2nd, then 3rd, then D to pull away otherwise it goes do 4th too soon and takes ages to pick up speed. I am happy doing this with the caravan on the back. Doesnt really need to be done when on it's own.

James,

Its a long shot but try changing the fuel filter, it won't do any harm but it might do some good.  :)

I may just do that. If the oil is anything to go by when I changed it after just getting the new engine it was like new, so the fuel filter maybe new ish too as it came with the engine. Certianly worth a go.

hi james , not up on the auto but have heard they are less economical than the manual, i get about 27 when towing .

Is yours auto or manaul? I have heard that autos do less mpg but Dr Ed on here swears he gets 30mpg going about town solo with his 200tdi manual. For me to get 23mpg solo on a motorway for 90% of the journey is just painful.

is your auto an edc or before that .

What is an EDC? It is an M reg. an early 300tdi, ie it doesnt have leccy seats or cruise control and the cd player is under the passenger seat instead of the drivers. So a very early 300tdi if that helps.

is the pump timing crack on . iff its running smooth and low on performance it may be out a little. noisey powefull and smokey itt;ll be a little out the other way . there easy to check .

No idea. It gives a little puff of black smoke when I start the engine up but I dont have any glow plugs at the moment as I have had to bypass the imobiliser as that has jammed on so I have a wire going from battery-fuse-switch in car-stop solonoid.  How do I check it?

i know with your recent luck you will be concerned about messing too much but has the egr been blanked .

this new engine has no egr at all and I have blanked off the egr part on the intercooler pipe. There was a sensor or stat on the very top of my old engine that the wires melted on but this new engine doesnt have one and doesnt look like it ever did. This new engine was from a manual disco. Would this sensor make any difference?

did you clean the intercooler after your last problem.

Yup. soaked it in petrol over night, then cleaned with water and left to dry for a week. I am guessing intercooler is the small radiator next to the main water one?

as said fuell filter / air filter, check the basics first .then go from there . ive tweeked both pumps on mine without going daft or without any probs makes a hell of a difference . just  a thought  ?..alan....

As you said above, I am worried about tweaks as I really cant afford any more bills as I have tax and insurance coming up within a month and just been through MOT and I have to do a years tax because if I do 6 months tax I end up with both cars tax running out in the same month. :(

exactly as bilge rat said,i cant comment on towing yet as i havent but my 300 tdi is not quick off the mark but fast enough to pull out quickly at a busy round about,im getting about 32mpg with no pump mods and only the egr blanked,when i did this i cleaned out ALL the pipework and intercooler with petrol.Mine has got 120,000 on the clock i have had it up to 95mph and she will sit at 60mph all day high winds or not so somethings definatly a miss,have you checked out turbo hoses?to be honest mate my moneys on the timing though.

95mph.  I ease off at 70mph as the handling becomes appaling and the disco is giving its all to be there. This new engine is better and can occasionaly get to 80 if it is down hill and wind behind me. I have to have foot to the floor up hills to keep 70mph. Better than the last engine but still not happy. Turbo hoses? where are they? what am I looking for? Is timing an easy thing to put right? If I took it to my local garage is it an hour job to check or do or is it a major one?

I've not long had my 300, and when it was totally standard, it would cruise at 100, on a private road of course..... i was shocked at that i must say, won;t be that quick now, as i've fitted 33's and a few other goodies...!!!...:)

I have tree / rock sliders, snorkel, bfg at's steering guard with hi lift and recovery points on so a hefty job on my disco. Surely this wouldnt slow it down that much would it? Total weight 40kg? half an average person in the car. That wont have a huge effect, surely?

I've got to say timing, either fuel pump or heaven forbid valve timing.

By the way you say that valve timing doesnt sound like a good thing. An cop car though wouldnt be driven with valve timing wrong would it? I think it was only used on a pay and break day after it left cop service by some young lads who smashed in the rear end hence the engine came out. The guy I bought the engine from is from an off road trialing club and he sells landies to these lads, they destroy them, he buys them back for less money and strips them and makes money on parts. Dont thinkhe would sellme a duff engine.

Ubnless of course you have missed off something silly like the turbo to fuel pump pressure pipe, or an intercooler leak.  I've had an intercooler pipe bust and the thing drove like a 1.1.

Where is that pipe? Intercooler leak being the rad gone? do I need to get some silicone hoses or something?

Now my sister has a 300TDi auto and tows with it, it's not as fast as her V8 was but it does the job nicely and gets reasonable economy with her at the wheel.

  I'm not jealous at all!! :lol:

Our 300 manual will do about 27 mpg with me driving and it's no slouch I can tell you.

So you driving like you stole it and you still get 27mpg. I'm going to cry!

we have a 200tdi manual disco(the toy) and a sensible 300tdi es for towing the horse box auto of course when i bought both cars i changed all the filters on them first thing i did and the one at the back right by the fuel tnk this one is renown for blocking up,

Where is this one? Maybe this is my problem? Both engines did 23mpg and into teens when towing so a blocked filter I dont know abaout could be a cause. The last engine ran better on veg oil (28mpg) and the oil was in the main tank. Dont know what relevense this has but thought I would share!!!

i made shure both fuel pumps were working efficently i ended up cranking the turbo up onthe 200 to bring it up to the same power as the 300

How do I know if the fuel pump is working properly? The new engine came with near enough everything on it as a lump to put in, plug in and go.

but as for towing a horse box which once fully laden with 2 horses is similar weight to a caravan maybe even heavier it flew up hills as if they werent even there keeping speeds up long hills of around 50-60 which is good but cruizing at 70 is a piece of cake u must have some problems

If I drop the gears down to 3rd or even 2nd and get it screaming absolute blue murder I can keep it at 50-60 up hills. I was in 2nd at one point on Sunday trying to get up a hill that wsnt even that steep. Lorries entering from a slip road were over taking me and they had less of a run up of the hill than me.  :'(

[bilge rat]

hi james , think the easy way iff it has edc it has like an airflow meter between the air filter and turbo i think . big unit you wont miss it . it prob isnt..  i think ! the sensor in the middle of the head is something to do with the e.g.r set . like a temp sensor, so wouldnt worry. the pump timing iff you get a wading plug for the bell housing you need to drill a 3/16 hole in the very ctr of it .or find some sort of plumbing fitting and modify it . got mine out a boat yard. any way turn the engine and there is a slot in the flywheel which is tdc. then you should be able to remove the round plate on the front of the timing cover you'll see the front of the deisel pump . there is a timing hole at the top slightly left iff i remember now you should be able to slide a 9.5 mm drill into this hole and into the front of the pump . (do not attempt to turn the engine in any way when this is located .0 you can damage the front of the pump. hope this makes sence and helps . cheers . alan...

[muddyjames]

that all sounds simple and complicated at the same time. 

If the timing is out am i slowly screwing my engine up?

[Jas278]

I thought an engine that had done 100k less than my old one and runs alot smoother and was an ex police cars so lots of servicing would have been alot better.

Ex Police Engine , So driven hard from cold on regular basis , worst cars to buy ever.............

[Disco Matt]

I would wonder if the problem lies with the stuff you didn't transfer from the old engine (like the kickdown parts)?

[muddyjames]

I thought an engine that had done 100k less than my old one and runs alot smoother and was an ex police cars so lots of servicing would have been alot better.

Ex Police Engine , So driven hard from cold on regular basis , worst cars to buy ever.............

I was told it was an ex support unit so hopefully not driven hard, but who knows. it sounds alot better than the old engine and there is no noise from the snorkel as air is being sucked in like the last engine did.

[muddyjames]

I would wonder if the problem lies with the stuff you didn't transfer from the old engine (like the kickdown parts)?

but would not having kick down just be like a manual gear box? There is a connector leccy plug on the old engine for the kick down but it looks far too complicated to change that unit over as all the throttle linkage bit on the engine end needs to come off and even a mate said he isnt going to help as it can screw up engine big time if the old one goes back on the new one even slightly out.

[Disco Matt]

I was thinking that the kickdown might do something clever with the throttle setting to give it more oomph - I know little about auto boxes but that would be my best guess.

[Range Rover Blues]

James, the kickjdown consists of a cable from the gearbox to the throttle mech.  It has a choice of 4 holes on the TDi pump (and extra bracket is bolted onto the throttle arm) so you can alter how sensitive it is, youd be surprised how much it kicks down though.

the electric multiplug for the auto box handles the reversing lights, starter interlock (N ro P only) and the air suspension/engine ECU inputs.  Yes you can drive it like a clutchless manual, that's what a lot of drag racers do bu fitting a manual valve block.  LR are unusual in fitting a selector with all the gears on it.  Just remember it won't change down at too high a speed in order to avaoid over reving the engine.

Just a thought, is it a Diesel auto box?

That piep I mentioned goes form the turbo elbow (along with the waste gate) round the back of the engine to the very top of the fuel pump, the round diaphram that controls fuel enrichment.  Might be worth having a look inside the pump to check it's not seized.  I'd expect a tiny bit of black smoke on hard acceleration as you open the throttle.

[muddyjames]

the auto box is my original one so guesing it has never ben changed I think it is a diesel one? It may have been changed in the past maybe.

Does the pipe look like a braided one that goes to the big main air intake from air box to back of engine and goes to the top of the engine by the glow plugs? That one is definately on as I even put a jubilee clip around it to hold it in.

I get a puff of black smoke eveytime I start the disco from hot and cold. Havent seen any smoke on hard aceleration.

[bilge rat]

sounds like you may be looking aty the wrong pipe there . the pipe is only about a thick as a pencil . not braided. worth checking ..alan....

[peasey]

Having thought about this for a while now this is what i would do, in this order but its up to you.i would put everything on it as if it came from the factory,put that kick down cable on as for screwing the engine up i recon thats doubtfull but any way its got to be better than having to change things manually otherwise you may as well have a manual box(if you need help or some pics as to where things go i will post some up for you).Then check the timing as others have described if you have done the double tightening technique on the pump pulley i cant see its far out but check and double check the puff of smoke sounds normalish to me and i dont think its much to be concerned about but mine doesnt do it.then i would check the turbo can you here it whistling while driving?you have already ruled out a intercooler leak by filling it with petrol and cleaning it so forget that but the pipework is important you are looking for splits leaks holes and the pipes collapsing(sucking flat)when the engine is reved make sure all the jubliee clips are tight and pipes are pushed on correctly i use a spanner to nip the clips up tighter than screwdriver tight,check that the egr blanking plates are air tight i made mine fitted them then put the egr back on so i didnt have to worry about blanking other pipes and plugs were not left floating around,next i would check the turbo its self i used a compression tester because it registers the max boost and holds there so you can drive the car normally and see what boost you are getting the tester is cheap at around £18 it should read between 0.8to1.0 bar of pressure as standard(14 psi= 1 bar) if thats ok then check the engine compression buy removing a glow plug now this is where you will have to make an adaptor to fit the glow plug hole for you compression tester,i just drilled through a glow plug and connected it with a small piece of hose with a couple of jubilee clips screw this into the glow plug hole and crank the engine over now my compression tester is one for petrol cars as they are cheaper than the diesel ones so the reading will probably go off the scale but this is what you want if the reading is low pour some engine oil down the plug hole and repeat if it is high as it should be then your piston rings or bore is shot(as we have already checked the timing)repeat this for all cylinders(4 in total)oh before you try this remove the stop solonoid wire on the diesel pump so it wont start!if the readings are low this is where your problems are im not sure what they should be but they are alot higher than a petrol engine and should be well into the red section on your guage.if the engine has been sitting for a while the piston rings can seize to the piston and create low compression but only usually if there has been water left in there from say a busted head gasket.now move onto the exhaust im no expert here so im only telling you what i would do,take the cat off if you have one and check that its clear and free flowing(blow through it) and repeat for other boxes in the system i doubt weather its restricted in any way but worth checking as my cat has started to collapse inside.Right next thing to check is do all the wheels turn freely when jacked up,what were looking for here is if the brakes are binding(stuck on) check all 4 wheels but i think that you would have noticed that as you usally get a burning smell and or pulling to one side but you could have more than one binding as you motor has been sat idle for a while while changing the engine.sorry but this is where im running out of ideas.I find if your slow and methodical you will find whats wrong eventually,i have a 300 tdi so if you need any pictures of things just ask and i will put them on here for you.oh and a word to the wise,i live next door to a copper and he abuses any vehicle he has so in future i would avoid there things,i would be the same if i didnt have to pay for it or fix it.Anyway im ending my epic post here hope it sheds some light on things mate,best of luck,PAUL.                                                                                                                                                                                                                
P.S. A full bush kit helps with the handling but we will leave that for another time i think!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[muddyjames]

This is of the where the linkage for the auto box connects too but this is ht emanul engine one. I need to take off the whole of this assembly to be able to attatch the kick down function. I cant even work out how to unbolt the kick down off the broken engine.  :'( I was going to take a photo of auto one but it hammered it down with rain. grr.



this is the pipe I thought was the turbo one. I cant see any small pencil thickness ones except for one with a knot in that used to go to the egr on the old engine. This is tucked away next to what I think is the egr system leccy controls which is silver over the front near side wheel arch with wires and pipes coming off of it.

Dont even tempt me with having a manual box. I am NEVER buying an auto again as I hate the lack of control of gears for towing. Hateful, hateful, hateful.

Timing sounds like a send to garage job as I am unsure of where the diesel pump hole is etc. Will book it in for timing check after my holiday.

egr:

I have no pipework at all going to a egr. All I have is a rusted on egr plate on the engine and a blanking plate on the turbo pipe which I used some blue gasket sealant stuff on to make it air tight. dont want water getting in when wading! Appart from that there is a silver box as described above which I think is the egr control unit. This is not plumbed or wired in. It is just dead weight I am taking around the country with me!

Compression testing:

Sounds simple ish. I will give that a go too after my holiday. Re the stop solonoid removing before turning engine over. Mine is through a switch anyway as the immobiliser is locked on.  By doing this is there some computer I have bypassed that maybe my problem? Stop soloniod doesnt go anywhere near ignition system anymore.

Wheels being free.

It passed it's Mot thursday last week and a binding wheel would come up on that wouldn't it? Worth checking anyway as an easy job I can do.

Exhaust.

The system is well rusted together and starting to fall appart so maybe the cat is falling appart? I am tempted to fit a 200tdi exhaust when I do change it but cant afford a new exhaust yet.

A full bush kit. enlighten me. I have police spec springs and shocks fitted about 2 years ago which did sod all to the handling. Stiffer suspension may be a great help when towing my caravan. Having some snaking going on so bad the people int he next lane move accross a lane away from you is damn scary!

Thanks for the epic post. I may go to my local garage with all you have said and ask for a preasure test turbo check etc etc as they know what they are doing I would like to hope.

I may be looking at td5's soon as i saw on 5th gear that scrap metal is worth alot these days!! :lol:

[Range Rover Blues]

James, look at your first picture, behind the round dull metlay thing in the middleo f the pic is a thin black pipe (looks like a cable but it's a pipe).

This is the one that should be going to the turbo outlet elbow.  What is does is change the amount of fuel the pump can deliver to the engine when the turbo is pushing more air in.  Without it you have a non-turbo engine.

I'd suggest you beg/borrow/steal a turbo boost guage first and blue-tack it to the dash, then you can see if you are getting any boost, how much and if it makes any difference.

As for auto/manual, well on a Diesel I reckon it's six of one and half dozen the other, having had both.  For a V8 that tows I'm a real convert to the ZF box.


BTW, I picked up the mid and back end of a 200 STDI system for £60 on flea bay, so they aren't that expensive.

[Dr.Ed]

James - i have a boost gauge you can borrow, will bring it to the national? may have a chance to do some beating of the engine as well...

Ed.

[muddyjames]

James - i have a boost gauge you can borrow, will bring it to the national? may have a chance to do some beating of the engine as well...

Ed.

Sounds wicked. cheers Ed. Bring tow ropes too, oh and my wellies from your camp that Mel borrowed please. I'm gonna need them :D. I have a funny feeling we may be doing some tandem tows again out of mud!! :lol:  :D

[muddyjames]

James, look at your first picture, behind the round dull metlay thing in the middleo f the pic is a thin black pipe (looks like a cable but it's a pipe).

This is the one that should be going to the turbo outlet elbow.  What is does is change the amount of fuel the pump can deliver to the engine when the turbo is pushing more air in.  Without it you have a non-turbo engine.

I see the pipe. Where is the turbo elbow? Just took disco to garage to book it in for tuesday so they can have a look and see if I missed anything. I told them not to spend any more than an hour looking as I cant afford any more. Driving it there the disco does shift nicely. Shame it doesnt when it has a caravan on the ar**e end! I think I was spoilt having my rover 620 as a first tow car. With the max weight caravan it could tow (1200kg) it still went well up hills. Garage is going to have a look and do boost preasure but wont if I am borrowing Ed's.

I'd suggest you beg/borrow/steal a turbo boost guage first and blue-tack it to the dash, then you can see if you are getting any boost, how much and if it makes any difference.

Stealing Dr Ed's 

As for auto/manual, well on a Diesel I reckon it's six of one and half dozen the other, having had both.  For a V8 that tows I'm a real convert to the ZF box.

My thoughts on a auto on diesle is fantastic, cant beat it and love every second whilst off roading. Towing and on the road and mpg. Detest it.

BTW, I picked up the mid and back end of a 200 STDI system for £60 on flea bay, so they aren't that expensive.
[/quote]

Ed' watch out. You may have no exhaust if left too long :lol:

[peasey]

I have just bought the mega bush kit off ebay from a firm called floflex polyurathane mind you they are two days late on delivery already :rolleyes:but i had the same set on my v8 and it transformed the handling and felt fantastic when toeing especailly if yours are shot.Some say to avoid these bushes and that the originals are better but i couldnt find anywhere that sold the mega bush kit in original form for the same money.they arent cheap at £100 but worth every penny in my book even when cornering at speed.Just do a search for bush kits and you will find them.the only down side is the old ones are a pain to get out i usally drill them out cause there pressed in but the new ones come in two parts so are easy as you like to fit,oh and its time consuming.hope they find something on tuesday mate all the best fingers crossed touch wood etc etc.

[Range Rover Blues]

James, if the boost guage shows there is a respectable amount of boost then don't go p***ing about adjusting the waste gate rod, it's far easier to fit a boost control valve (that way you can tweak the boost as and when plus it illiminates waste gate creep).  If you are getting at least 0.7 bar then look somewhere else.

Now, if you follow the air inlet pipe from the airbox to the back of the turbo you should see the boosted air pipe going forewards form the side of it.  On the very outside edge of the "sanil" which is the compressor housing you should find a small (square IIRC) adapter bolted in with 2 pipes connected to it, one goes to the fuel pump and the other goes to the waste gate.  This is whaere you connect the boost guage with a T piece.

You can connect the boost guage to the inlet plenum but unless you supect the intercooler is blocked then it's easier to connect to the turbo.


I fitted one of these, it works.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/POWERTEK-BOOST-CONTROLLER-LANDROVER-200-300-series-TDi_W0QQitemZ130246291139QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item130246291139&_trkparms=72%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1318

[muddyjames]

Update.

I towed the caravan about 80miles on Friday and along the motorway I was quiet suprised. No wind and it sat at 60 behind a lorry very happily, I even overtook a few lorries!!

Along the main road to the motorway from home I took on board someones advice in the towing section saying they find it better to tow at 40 on main roads as it is more economical and it did that better too, although a longer queue behind me!!!

so really, I think the wind last weekend was stronger than I thought and the engine is slowly bedding itself in. Driving home solo last night it was happy at 70 on the motorway. I think I even used more fuel doing 70 solo than at 60 with the van!

This weekend I will be back to tow loads of stuck vehicles out of mud! Towed a campervan bogged to it's axles out of mud last night and didnt even need dif lock.  :D

[nzoliver]

Hi all,  :roll:
I am on my 4th Tdi.  :doh: All but 1 have been 300 with EDC. All the 300s have got an average of 23-24mpg. 100km/h is no problem but they top out at 130 (about 80mph). Our fuel aint good I don't think especially from the 'big 4' oil companies.  :?
Towing, that's another matter. Doesn't change the economy by much 1-2mpg but it ain't no Lambo on the hills!! [-X

[Range Rover Blues]

I'd guess our TDi is a bit faster than that :-'