Towing frames

[general baxter]

what are the law on these?  the car needed to be transported dont have tax or insurance

[Range Rover Blues]

Illegal, very very illegal.

The car has to be road legal.  You are only allowed to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety and must still observe the towing limits of the towcar as stipulated by the manufacturer, inlcuding unbraked/braked trailers.

If you set off from home with one you are breaking at least one law [-X

[general baxter]

so how does it work with camper vans, with smart cars ect: on the back?


the car is a 750kg nova  (stripped out race spec)  being towed with my patrol

[ben_haynes]

so how does it work with camper vans, with smart cars ect: on the back?


the car is a 750kg nova  (stripped out race spec)  being towed with my patrol

is it Insured and TAX'd???

if so it is perfectly legay aslong as it is rigged up with the brake mechanisms on to the pedal, and Lighting set up

when i was a Fiat mechanic we used to fit them to Cinquecento and Seicento to be towed behind a Ducato and Scudo Camper Van with all rear lights rigged on a trailer Plug to operate when use in Ducato or Scudo

[general baxter]

is it Insured and TAX'd???

thats the problem, its a track car, and i need to take it to its new owner

and the local trailer hire company will lend me one for £96 + vat per day with £250 deposit  :-k

[ben_haynes]

is it Insured and TAX'd???

thats the problem, its a track car, and i need to take it to its new owner

Trailer Only Unfortunatly

[carbore]

Hello,

I found this on the NTTA National Trailers and Towing Website http://www.ntta.co.uk/faq/default.htm in the FAQ section some, but not all is relevent.

I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit? Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car’s kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car’s Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.

Having spent a long time thining of something to tow my Elise I opted for a propper trailer. The if you ever have a mechanical issue or bend it then an a-frame is no use.  Id saveup and get a trailer, you can get away with a single axle for that weight. Be careful if you e-bay mine was allegedly just serviced, but I have had to replace lots of the breaking system.

[general baxter]

What about a 'dolly'  which lifts the front wheels off the ground?

[MudRat]

is it Insured and TAX'd???

thats the problem, its a track car, and i need to take it to its new owner

and the local trailer hire company will lend me one for £96 + vat per day with £250 deposit  :-k

You can buy a new one for two days hire!

[Llanigraham]

I suggest that you have another look at the VOSA web site, in particular about trailers.

A car being towed as you suggest becomes a trailer, and therefore being unbraked must have a total maximum weight capacity of less than 750 kg. Your Nova might weigh less than this, but has a weight capacity over this.

There are braking systems that you can fit that couple to the towing vehicle's system but they aren't cheap, especially for a "one off" job.

Legally I think you are going to have to borrow a trailer to keep within the law.

[bilge rat]

not reading this in depth but ive just bought  a disco  (non runner ,no tax) was thinking to tow it on a solid bar to go down the route of a close coupled trailer. spoke to the police and they said all 4 wheels had to off the road unless it was taxed and insured.so i borrowed a trailer ..

[Range Rover Blues]

Most of you seem to have grasped the truth (or like Buhdists we all see part of it).  And Well done to Carbore for being the most accurate.

If a car has any wheels on the floor, it must be road legal.  If you are going to call it a trailer it must have been modyfied to make it exclussively a trailer, ie no engine.  It then has to meet C&U regs for a trailer as it is considered built or significantly modified after the qualifying date (mid '80s IIRC).

ANY TRAILER MUST HAVE TRAILER BRAKES.  There is no way any car on the road will comply with European Directive 71/320/EEC because that requires amongst other things that the brakes allow the trailer to be reversed without the brakes being applied, so connecting it to either the car handbrake or footbrake it not legal.

Unless the MAXIMUM mass of the car with the A frame fitted is below 750kg then it must have brakes that comply with said directive, end of story.

If the MAM of the trailer is more than 50% of the kerb weight of the car it must have brakes.

The trailer can weight more than the car if the car was designed to tow that weight, a trailer with a MAM above the car's tow limit can be loaded up to the car's tow limit.  However cat B does not permit a trailer MAM to exceed the kerb weight of the car.  I'm not going into all the licencing rules here, suffice to say if you don't have B+E you won't be towing a car AT ALL.

Confused yet?

Trailer lights have different requirements than car lights.  The reflectors particularly plus any trailer over 7¹/₂ feet excluding the drawbar must also have front corner markers.

'A' frames can never be legal in any circumstance, the law allows you to "bend" the rules if a vehicle is broken down and needs moving to safety.  Same rules as allows a rigid tow-pole or even a rope.

If you had a dolly with it's own overrun brakes then you can use it to transport a car, BUT that car must be road leagl if it still has 2 wheels on the road.  You also have issues that the axle on the dolly has to be rated to carry the entire weight of the car so that the brakes are then rated sufficiently for the car and the dolly, or put another way any trailer can be braked on one axle only provided the brakes are rated high enough for the whole trailer, loaded.

As for anyone towing a small car behind a camper van, again ILLEGAL.  If dealers are charging money to supply cars thus modified they need a visit from VOSA, taking money from punters, whilst not excusing the camper owner, makes the dealer liable too but for different reasons (fit for purpose).

Just getting away repeatedly with an offense is not an excuse either!


Moderators, how about a sticky in the caravans tents and trailer section? this one comes up all the time.

[redhand]

Moderators, how about a sticky in the caravans tents and trailer section? this one comes up all the time.

If it is made into a sticky This might be useful as well

Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport

When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/107 as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.

Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.

The use of "dollies" is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from "A" to "B". Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.

We do not supply copies of legislation but I have included some information on various sources where they can be obtained. If you would like to purchase printed copies of Statutory Instruments these are available from TSO:

The Stationery Office Tel:
PO Box 29 Fax: 0870 600 5533
St Crispins e-mail: book.orders@tso.co.uk
Duke Street online ordering: www.tso.co.uk/bookshop
Norwich NR3 1GN

Alternatively you can consult "The Encyclopedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice" published by Sweet and Maxwell. This publication is updated regularly and is available in most city reference libraries.

EU Directives can be found at:
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/search/search_lif.html

UN-ECE Regulations can be found at: http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html

From the above I hope it is clear that we believe the use of "A" frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law.


Alan Mendelson
Primary Safety Branch
Department for Transport


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Footnote:
As the above is somewhat technical in nature we advise anyone buying an A-frame towing system to obtain a written declaration from the supplier that the particular installation, as supplied, meets all UK legislative requirements. It is also essential that your insurers, for both the car and the motorhome, are made aware of the towing arrangement in use.


As it says above Use of an Aframe isn't illegal but getting it to meet all the minimum legal requirement are going to be so difficult that it might as well be..

[general baxter]

looks like trailer then,  iv worked hard at getting all the classes on my licence, and dont want to throw it away doing something dumb  :roll:

[Eeyore]

ok then how many of us have used an aframe/towing dolly rope or what ever I know for one it will be nearly all of us i for one has used aframes towing dollies ropes chains towing bars you name it i might have tried so come on then be honest about it how many has used something what they should not have like for towing. All it is some pen pusher who has nothing better to do than come up with these things and ban them same as the bull bars they was thinking about banning them but did it work NO

Um, I'm not sure I follow your point here.  :-.

Sure, you're upset. But your not clear about what - expect that people make rules that aren't necessarily popular.

[redhand]

ok then how many of us have used an aframe/towing dolly rope or what ever I know for one it will be nearly all of us i for one has used aframes towing dollies ropes chains towing bars you name it i might have tried so come on then be honest about it how many has used something what they should not have like for towing.

But all the above are still legal to use. If used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Like Eeyore says I'm not sure what the point is, that you are trying to make.

[redhand]

ok then if a frames are illegal why can we still buy them

because it isn't illegal to use an Aframe

same as a aframe is made for the sj which is 750kg which is in the limit mark for non braking aframe and people who has past their test after jan97 can tow one

But you can't! because all the wheels on a trailer if fitted with brakes, have to work and meet the regs for trailer brakes attach an Aframe to a car and it becomes classed as a trailer. I suggest you read Vosa's legal position as post above. You obviously have misunderstood what has been posted. I don't know where you got the last bit of info from but it is seriously flawed.

[Tommo]

"When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer."

 
So, if you have a car that weighs under 750KG's, attach an a frame, and make sure it meets trailer legislation and lighting regs (ie trailer board) and the towing vehicle weighs more than 1500kgs (double the towing weight) then you are ok. The gross weight of the car is not relevant because it is now classed as a trailer, and it has no brakes, so by default its MAM is 750kgs. It dosent need to have tax and test because its classed as a trailer.

No doubt there will be somthing in the trailer regulations to catch you out if you look hard enough.

[ben_haynes]

ok then if a frames are illegal why can we still buy them same as a aframe is made for the sj which is 750kg which is in the limit mark for non braking aframe and people who has past their test after jan97 can tow one

it is illegal to tow a SJ on an unbraked A frame for pay and Play but if it brakes down you can recover to place of safety or repair,
an SJ may have a kerb weight of less than 750KG but i assume it is over the Maximum (gross) weight , as i know a Seicento and Cinquecento are 450KG kerb but 800KG gross and i am possitive an SJ weighs more than the fiat

[ben_haynes]

a vitara what i scrapped a few months ago weighed in at 850kgs and a sj is alot less than them so if i dont use a aframe on my sj but put it in the back of my tipper where do i stand with it as i need to make an extention for it to fit as my transit is only 8ft buck and the sj is 10 ft long and my transit is a crew cab fully insured for carrying my own goods and goods in transit

it will be like a flat bed, the SJ does not have any wheels on the road so is not needed to be legal,

[Wireless]

ok then how many of us have used an aframe/towing dolly rope or what ever I know for one it will be nearly all of us i for one has used aframes towing dollies ropes chains towing bars you name it i might have tried so come on then be honest about it how many has used something what they should not have like for towing. All it is some pen pusher who has nothing better to do than come up with these things and ban them same as the bull bars they was thinking about banning them but did it work NO

I've never used an A-Frame or Towing Dolly, I always use a proper roadworthy trailer on which to move vehicles.

Went to pick up a trailer one day to help out a friend, we were going to borrow from a commercial firm (owner was prepared to let us use it), to use it to move a VW Splitty Camper (broken transmission).  When we turned up there was a VW Bay Camper on it, the owner had used it that day, but the state of the trailer was lethal;

Odd sized tyres, bald tyres (no spare), damaged wheel and tyre sidewall, no mud guards, no jockey wheel or stand, no lights (all broken) with no electrics, and no brakes or handbrake, very rusty, and only a single axle on the trailer.

Remember, this was a commercial trailer used by a business daily...needless to say I had to disappoint everyone by not attaching it to the back of my Disco.

[redhand]

"When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer."

 
So, if you have a car that weighs under 750KG's, attach an a frame, and make sure it meets trailer legislation and lighting regs (ie trailer board) and the towing vehicle weighs more than 1500kgs (double the towing weight) then you are ok. The gross weight of the car is not relevant because it is now classed as a trailer, and it has no brakes, so by default its MAM is 750kgs. It dosent need to have tax and test because its classed as a trailer.

No doubt there will be somthing in the trailer regulations to catch you out if you look hard enough.

Yes there is. It is not the actual weight of the trailer that is counted but the Maximum weight the trailer is rated to carry that is counted somewhere on your SJ there will be a plate. with kerb weight and GVW (Gross vehicle weight) or MAM as it is known as now. It is the MAM that defines whether or not your "trailer" needs brakes. Also if a trailer has brakes. Regardless of it's weight all those brakes must work and meet C&U regulations. Currently there is nothing on the market that does. If you get stopped and use the excuse that "you are recoving a broken down vehicle" then it must have T&T otherwise it has obviously been used on a public road without T&T

[Mudlark]

"When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer."

 
So, if you have a car that weighs under 750KG's, attach an a frame, and make sure it meets trailer legislation and lighting regs (ie trailer board) and the towing vehicle weighs more than 1500kgs (double the towing weight) then you are ok. The gross weight of the car is not relevant because it is now classed as a trailer, and it has no brakes, so by default its MAM is 750kgs. It dosent need to have tax and test because its classed as a trailer.

No doubt there will be somthing in the trailer regulations to catch you out if you look hard enough.

Yes there is. It is not the actual weight of the trailer that is counted but the Maximum weight the trailer is rated to carry that is counted somewhere on your SJ there will be a plate. with kerb weight and GVW (Gross vehicle weight) or MAM as it is known as now. It is the MAM that defines whether or not your "trailer" needs brakes. Also if a trailer has brakes. Regardless of it's weight all those brakes must work and meet C&U regulations. Currently there is nothing on the market that does. If you get stopped and use the excuse that "you are recoving a broken down vehicle" then it must have T&T otherwise it has obviously been used on a public road without T&T

But there is a braking system on the A-frame market that operates all the brakes on the towed vehicle

[redhand]

But there is a braking system on the A-frame market that operates all the brakes on the towed vehicle

Yes there is but it does not meet C&U regulations. and because the servo isn't operating on the towed vehicle the braking efficiency is reduced. So it doesn't meet minimum braking efficiencies anymore. Believe me I have had this conversation too many times not to know what I'm on about. Towing a car/4x4/van etc on an Aframe will mean you are breaking some rule, regulation or law. Unless you're recovering a vehicle to a place of safety. My brother worked for a recovery company for 12years, I've emailed Police, Vosa & various other bodies researching whether it can ever be legal to use an a frame to tow a vehicle with and everything I have found says it can't be done.

[Mudlark]

But there is a braking system on the A-frame market that operates all the brakes on the towed vehicle

Yes there is but it does not meet C&U regulations. and because the servo isn't operating on the towed vehicle the braking efficiency is reduced. So it doesn't meet minimum braking efficiencies anymore. Believe me I have had this conversation too many times not to know what I'm on about. Towing a car/4x4/van etc on an Aframe will mean you are breaking some rule, regulation or law. Unless you're recovering a vehicle to a place of safety. My brother worked for a recovery company for 12years, I've emailed Police, Vosa & various other bodies researching whether it can ever be legal to use an a frame to tow a vehicle with and everything I have found says it can't be done.

It would also depend on the age of the towed vehicle (turned into a trailer) as to what law applies as well — older trailers not being subject to the same regs?

plus with the braking system you were using a vacuum pump on the servo were you not?

[Eeyore]

Yes there is but it does not meet C&U regulations. and because the servo isn't operating on the towed vehicle the braking efficiency is reduced. So it doesn't meet minimum braking efficiencies anymore.

Is that right? Brakes have to be designed to effectively stop the vehicle without the aid of a servo. it's like saying your steering doesn't work is the PAS pump goes. Sure, the brakes get harder to push, but they still gotta stop the vehicle.

I beleive it's easier for a trailer type brake to stop the towed car if the servo's operating, but it's not essential. Just like you don't need the ABS to operating either.

However, that doesn't take awy form the fact that a lot of the brake assist systems sold for towing cars aren't up for the job.

[carbore]

Re servos, older cars are just about ok wihout, but if you read my thread about coasting down hill in an Auto Freelander you may remember that I certainly diddnt feel the brakes were "effective" (terror!)

Gald to see the the originator of this thread is going to trailer it!

My feelings are..

If you use it and no one (coppers) sees you then nothing happens.
If you use a decent looking one and coppers see you they may well have something better to do and not pull you over.
If you get pulled over in a police/vosa operation then you will be looking at lots of legislation very quickly so its X points/fine or hire a solicitor.
If you have an accident then you may well be un insured and various other charges will apply.

I treck up and down the A30 form Cornwall to Glos regually and in the hols season there are frequent if not constant  stops on trailers etc. Police bikes/vans and VOSA.

Now that sounds extreme but also every week there as a pile or trailer parts (plus the odd tent) scattered in laybys and hard shoulders. Although the owner of the trailer may think its only them and once a year. When you drive past 10 wonky trailers on the way home you are glad that the police are trying to reduce the chances of one of these ending up under or in my Freelander.

 

[redhand]

Yes there is but it does not meet C&U regulations. and because the servo isn't operating on the towed vehicle the braking efficiency is reduced. So it doesn't meet minimum braking efficiencies anymore.

Is that right? Brakes have to be designed to effectively stop the vehicle without the aid of a servo. it's like saying your steering doesn't work is the PAS pump goes. Sure, the brakes get harder to push, but they still gotta stop the vehicle.

I beleive it's easier for a trailer type brake to stop the towed car if the servo's operating, but it's not essential. Just like you don't need the ABS to operating either.

However, that doesn't take awy form the fact that a lot of the brake assist systems sold for towing cars aren't up for the job.

If someone was sat in the towed vehicle and pressing as hard as they can then they would probably meet the minimum efficiencies required. Unfortunately the devices you get with Aframes don't apply that amount of force to the pedal. and consequently the braking effort at the wheels is severely reduced.

[Mudlark]

Yes there is but it does not meet C&U regulations. and because the servo isn't operating on the towed vehicle the braking efficiency is reduced. So it doesn't meet minimum braking efficiencies anymore.

Is that right? Brakes have to be designed to effectively stop the vehicle without the aid of a servo. it's like saying your steering doesn't work is the PAS pump goes. Sure, the brakes get harder to push, but they still gotta stop the vehicle.

I beleive it's easier for a trailer type brake to stop the towed car if the servo's operating, but it's not essential. Just like you don't need the ABS to operating either.

However, that doesn't take awy form the fact that a lot of the brake assist systems sold for towing cars aren't up for the job.

If someone was sat in the towed vehicle and pressing as hard as they can then they would probably meet the minimum efficiencies required. Unfortunately the devices you get with Aframes don't apply that amount of force to the pedal. and consequently the braking effort at the wheels is severely reduced.

Not quite sure how you arrive at this reply as the mechanical leverage of a decent A-frame brake is far greater than anyone can apply with their foot

[redhand]

Yes there is but it does not meet C&U regulations. and because the servo isn't operating on the towed vehicle the braking efficiency is reduced. So it doesn't meet minimum braking efficiencies anymore.

Is that right? Brakes have to be designed to effectively stop the vehicle without the aid of a servo. it's like saying your steering doesn't work is the PAS pump goes. Sure, the brakes get harder to push, but they still gotta stop the vehicle.

I beleive it's easier for a trailer type brake to stop the towed car if the servo's operating, but it's not essential. Just like you don't need the ABS to operating either.

However, that doesn't take awy form the fact that a lot of the brake assist systems sold for towing cars aren't up for the job.

If someone was sat in the towed vehicle and pressing as hard as they can then they would probably meet the minimum efficiencies required. Unfortunately the devices you get with Aframes don't apply that amount of force to the pedal. and consequently the braking effort at the wheels is severely reduced.

Not quite sure how you arrive at this reply as the mechanical leverage of a decent A-frame brake is far greater than anyone can apply with their foot

I arrived at my conclusion by reading the regs guidelines and rules governing the use of an Aframe on a UK road All of which state that an use of an Aframe to tow a car would be illegal because the braking effiencies would not be met using the systems that are currently available.