arrested for a fishingknife

[biggerlandy]

jesus they would have a field day with me i got axes  splitters bush chops lancing blades yhe whole works in mine

[trustyrusty]

[!Expletive Deleted!] me, I've got an axe, chainsaw, couple of knifes, shotgun cartridges in my truck, better have a clear out soon then might find even more yet!

[Bob696]

Sounds to me like they were bored or trying to get out of doing something dangerous like sorting out some drunks. I have witnessed and been on the recieving end of both from west midlands police.

Sorry Lord Shagg-Pyle you do seem a 'cut above the rest' but I have no faith in west midlands police.

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

Sounds to me like they were bored or trying to get out of doing something dangerous like sorting out some drunks. I have witnessed and been on the recieving end of both from west midlands police.

Sorry Lord Shagg-Pyle you do seem a 'cut above the rest' but I have no faith in west midlands police.

No probs matey, I can see where you are coming from. Logic and common sense does not seem to have a part to play in 'Modern Policing' however much the Regime of Commisar Brown quack on about it. :roll:

[datalas]

Is that the new police motto ?  ommitting the word "up" at the end seems a bit OTT ;)

Hehehe,  Sorry, couldn't resist :)

[Big Rich]

As I am about all hours day or night I live and work in the countryside. I get stopped as driving round what they call back roads of the town! with my window open is a good reason.

I have many knives in my vehicles. My P38 has a gut hook, Stag horn knife 4.5 inch fixed blade (mostly on my belt) as well as one or two in my glove box. My discovery the same. I have never had a problem or even asked what why they were there.

My only problem was why did I have a tool kit with 2 sets of spanners up to 36mm, hammer, srewdrivers, stud extractors usual kit in my boot.

Rich

[Panda]

My only problem was why did I have a tool kit with 2 sets of spanners up to 36mm, hammer, srewdrivers, stud extractors usual kit in my boot.

Rich

What was your answer? Because i drive a land rover officer    :lol:

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

Is that the new police motto ?  ommitting the word "up" at the end seems a bit OTT ;)

Hehehe,  Sorry, couldn't resist :)

No offence taken! Very funny! :lol: :lol: :lol: With all that is going on with the Police and the Press at the moment, you have to have a giggle!

[Sharpshooter]

I dont wish to seem for or against. But what fish are you catching, that require a 7" fixed blade ???

I hope nothing comes of it, but its a bit over the top.

[crazymac]

Is that the new police motto ?  ommitting the word "up" at the end seems a bit OTT ;)
Hehehe,  Sorry, couldn't resist :)

No offence taken! Very funny! :lol: :lol: :lol: With all that is going on with the Police and the Press at the moment, you have to have a giggle!

That go me remembering a Billy Connolly song from years ago, when he did a parody on the "Two little boys" by Rolf Harris all about police brutality!! Funny as heck!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=IE&hl=en-GB&v=WvaMuOanABk&feature=related

The chorus goes

Do you think I could leave you lying 
When I could lie my head off too 
If somebody squaks in the witness box 
I'll cover up for you 
I'll tell a pack of lies, pull the wool over their eyes 
The way the sergeant taught us to 
Before you count to three we'll be off scott free 
We're two little boys in blue

Although being Billy you need to replace HEAD with another part of your anatomy at the top of your legs!! :dance:

[richo]

I carry a leatherman all day and i'm only a plaster.
I hardly use the blades but find the file handy for smoothing out nics i sometimes pick up on my trowel.
Thats another piont my trowel is 14" long and 5" wide and is razor sharp by the looks of things i better watch out

[thermidorthelobster]

You should try going through Frankfurt Airport (that's the one that's REALLY fussy about security on UK/US flights, since Lockerbie) with 5lbs of asparagus tied up in your hand baggage.  You can imagine what it looks like on the x-ray machines.  Fortunately, even the Germans saw the funny side.

[stretchy]

gota answer bail tomoro. il let you know witch way it goes. hope I get my knife back.

[Rich_P]

Would someone explain what those who decided to ban locking blades saw as so dangerous in comparison to non-locking blades?  Was it on the idea that if someone were to be attacked that they might just, out of absolute million to one chance, close the blade before they're stabbed or something stupid like that?  :-.

[Yoshi]

Sounds to me like they were bored or trying to get out of doing something dangerous like sorting out some drunks. I have witnessed and been on the recieving end of both from west midlands police.

Sorry Lord Shagg-Pyle you do seem a 'cut above the rest' but I have no faith in west midlands police.

I'm sorry but a crime is a crime.  We complain that the police dont do enough in the communities, yet knife crime is one of the biggest problems!  The laws were bought in about the knifes because of all the gang stuff and everything else that goes on.  They are very widely known and as such should be obeyed.

No i am not perfect, in fact as a youth i spent most of my life on the wrong side of the law, but someone bleating cos they were caught breaking the law is pathetic.  The law quite clearly states that carrying locking blades full stop is a definate no no and anything else over 3" without very good reason (generally classed as part of employment).

Ok, fair enough you may have forgotten to remove it, i can accept that, but for the rest of you stop having a go at the law about this.

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

trying to play devil's advocate on this.

The Offensive Weapon laws have been around for ages and cover a lot more than just knives. The act actually names certain weapons, for instance flick knives, gravity knives, bear claws etc etc.
Most murders and assaults involving knives in the UK are carried out using kitchen knives. Can those be banned?
As I mentioned in an earlier post, if there are a large number of instances of knife attacks in a certain area, then extra stop/search powers are used. But it can be a case of 'caught between the devil and the deep blue sea'. It is said that 'excessive use' of stop/search powers was one of the causes of the riots in the early 80's in Brixton.

I have lifted people before when they have had a baseball bat in the car. The excuse was they had just finished a game of baseball. Interesting. How many people in the UK actually play baseball to have organised a game, at 2.00am etc etc.

Where I used to work up East, there was a county wide ban on any glass drinks containers in public places. Lots of moans to begin with especially from those who feared that the Police would be pouncing on a couple who were have a glass of wine in a park while having a picnic. Funnily enough, that didn't happen.
The amount of assaults where people were bottled or glassed dropped considerably.
For some reason that doesn't seem to be in place down here, which surprises me.

If I find someone with a knife, the very least that will happen is that they get a grilling as to why they have it, with possible seizure of the weapon.
If it is obvious to me that they have it for no good reason, they are getting a one way blue light taxi ride.

Discretion and common sense is the name of the game.

[lee celtic]

Discretion and common sense is the name of the game.

:clap:

However just out of interest (and not having a go in anyway at anyone ) don't most of these rules cover the carrying of the knife in a public place ??

I have always thought of my car as a private place . only I have a key and only I drive it and only those with my permission can get in. so why can't I carry my  knife in it. it's just an extention of my home...
a sealed locked steel box....with wheels. ;)

[crazymac]

I have always thought of my car as a private place . only I have a key and only I drive it and only those with my permission can get in. so why can't I carry my  knife in it. it's just an extention of my home...
a sealed locked steel box....with wheels. ;)

Unfortunately, there are Darwin throwbacks that will have a knife in their side pocket, then when road rage takes over their half brain cell they pull the knife and get slashing!

So the Police have to defend against that.

[CaptainColourful]

trying to play devil's advocate on this.

Most murders and assaults involving knives in the UK are carried out using kitchen knives. Can those be banned?

How many people in the UK actually play baseball to have organised a game, at 2.00am etc etc.

Police would be pouncing on a couple who were have a glass of wine in a park while having a picnic. Funnily enough, that didn't happen.
The amount of assaults where people were bottled or glassed dropped considerably.

If I find someone with a knife, the very least that will happen is that they get a grilling as to why they have it, with possible seizure of the weapon.
If it is obvious to me that they have it for no good reason, they are getting a one way blue light taxi ride.

Discretion and common sense is the name of the game.

:clap:

The last line says it all.

I think the real problem is that a lot of coppers do not use discretion or common sense in the fear that it may come back to haunt them later. It is far easier to stick to the letter of the law than to use their own judgement and to leave the decision of whether to prosecute or not to a faceless CPO civil servant who has had no contact at all with the accused.
 

You should try going through Frankfurt Airport (that's the one that's REALLY fussy about security on UK/US flights, since Lockerbie) with 5lbs of asparagus tied up in your hand baggage.  You can imagine what it looks like on the x-ray machines.  Fortunately, even the Germans saw the funny side.

That's really funny  :D

 

[craig_midz]

stretchy where was this was it by ya house as i can see y u got stopped there cuz of what happened the other week outside the fordrough but i have been stopped b4 an had my car searched for drugs :O purely an excuse as i was young an drivin with 2 lads in the car searched my car an my tool box that was in the boot an found a knife that was at bottom of tool box an b4 u know it there was another 4 police cars turn up luckly i had a couple of decent coppers there an once i explained the knife was for work its in the bottom of a tool box they let me get on my way but it could of gone a whole lot different

[Rich_P]

No one still has explained why locking blades were outlawed?

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

No one still has explained why locking blades were outlawed?

I have to say I don't know, but if you think that gravity knives and flick knives lock the blades, that would proably be the answer.

In relation to Lee Celtic's query about the car being a private place, ie classed as a dwelling, that is not the case. If it is the public domain, namely not on private land, then it becomes the same as a person, namely open to search, under the correct powers of course.
The only time it may be classed as a dwelling, is if the person in it is of no fixed address, which is not that often.
It can also depend under what power the search is being carried out as to where, when and what can be searched.
It is very difficult to try and explain accurately in a few short words how it works.

It confuses the hell out of me sometimes and I work with the law! :?

[Sharpshooter]

No one still has explained why locking blades were outlawed?

Nor what he's fishing for with a 7" blade.... :-k

[Gordo]

Hang on a minute: since we banned handguns, gun-crime has increased. Since we started this crusade against knives, knife-crime has increased...

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm sure there's some sort of pattern forming there...  :-k

[Disco Matt]

The locking knife part baffles me too.

I have a swiss army knife with a non-locking blade under 3in. I believe driving a 13 year old car and working with computer hardware to be legitimate reasons for carrying such a tool, as it's a lot easier to just flip the screwdriver part out than it is to rummage around for a proper screwdriver. Everyone should carry basic hand tools, especially if they regularly travel through remote areas.

However, I also have a little keyring knife bought from an outdoor chain store. This has a blade of just over an inch in length, but as it locks it's illegal to carry in public (so I don't - it lives in the back of my wardrobe with the other outdoorsy tools).

You could do a lot more damage with a swiss army knife than with that little blade. You could do a lot more damage with a brick than with either blade. But a blade little more than double the length of your thumbnail is illegal simply because it locks...

[lee celtic]

I seem to remember a thread not long ago about knifes in the car , after reading that thread I added a knife to my keyring so if the car rolls I can cut the seat belt (you can reach the ignition to get the keyring) I think the idea came from LSP  :-k
how would a pen knife attached to your keys go down ???

[stretchy]

I had a 7 inch blade maybe biger becuase thats what it is. its an all round survival tool. it has a compass on the handle a saw on the back of the blade first aid kit and matches and fishing stuf in the handle. becaus of the weight of it you can use it as machetie althogh its relativly small in theas types of knifes. I got this knife from a freind who runs a gun shop and knows the law inside out on knifes and has the police in reguler. he is still selling lock knifes btw so whats going on ther I dont know. I mean think about it a sak blade locks into place and they are sold all over the place. he wouldent jepadise his well istablished bisiness if he knew they where iligal. are you sure you dont all mean flick knife??  he also asures me that as long as I have good reson to have it ther is no problem. The fact that I just forgot it was ther will be up to a judge to dicide the penalty. whatever that happends to be I will still pack a replacement on the next trip, as someone said earlier its just a blade the best tool invented and its your right to own one. I have been rebaild for 1 week.

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

I hope the following may clear up a few points (no pun intended), but wil no doubt raise a few others.

Knife Law 
Knife Law Presentation given by Greg Power and Jonny Crockett

If in doubt - ASK!

(Below are the notes from a presentation given by Jonny Crockett and Greg Power at the Wilderness Gathering 2008 and at subsequent occasions.)

 



 

 This presentation will illustrate significant and relevant points of law concerning the possession and carrying of knives, axes, saws and other sharp objects, with particular reference to the practise of bushcraft and survival skills.
More importantly, this presentation is designed to help members of the public stay within the law.
 

Knife Law

Manufacture/sell/hire ‘Flick Knife’ or ‘Flick Gun’.


Source: Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act, 1959. Section 1(1).
Offence: It is an offence for a person to manufacture, sell, hire or offer for sale or hire or expose or have in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lend or give to any person:
A) any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, sometimes know as a ‘flick knife’ or ‘flick gun’; or
B) any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device, sometimes known as a ‘gravity knife’.


Source: Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act, 1959. Section 1(2).
Offence: It is an offence to import any knife as described in s.1(1) and sometimes known as a ‘flick knife’ or ‘flick gun’ and ‘gravity knife’
Powers: Arrestable offence.
Public Place
Source: Criminal Justice Act, 1988. Section 139(1).
Offence: It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches.  The burden of proving the lawful authority lies with the defendant.
Defences Good reason, lawful authority, it was for use at work,(caretaker), religious reasons and it was part of a national costume.

School Premises
Source: Criminal Justice Act, 1988. Section 139A(1).
Offence: It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him on school premises any article to which s.139 applies.
Defences Good reason, lawful authority, it was for use at work,(caretaker), religious reasons and it was part of a national costume.

 


Sell to under 18
Source: Violent Crime Reduction Act, 2006.
Offence: It is an offence for any person to sell to a person under the age of 18 any knife, knife blade, razor blade, axe or any other article which has a blade or is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for causing injury to the person.  Razor blades in a cartridge (Bic, Gillette etc) is okay.

Source: Offensive Weapons Act, 1996

Sale of knives and certain articles with blade or point to persons under sixteen

(1) After section 141 of the [1988 c. 33.] Criminal Justice Act 1988 (offensive weapons) there is inserted—

“141A. Sale of knives and certain articles with blade or point to persons under sixteen

(1) Any person who sells to a person under the age of sixteen years an article to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or both.

(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to—

(a) any knife, knife blade or razor blade,

(b) any axe, and

(c) any other article which has a blade or which is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for use for causing injury to the person.

(3) This section does not apply to any article described in—

(a) section 1 of the [1959 c. 37.] Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959,

(b) an order made under section 141(2) of this Act, or

(c) an order made by the Secretary of State under this section.

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) above to prove that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the commission of the offence.

(5) The power to make an order under this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”


 

Public Places
Definition in law of a public place:

This is very difficult to determine but mostly the law defines a public place as meaning any street, road or other place to which the public have, or are permitted to have access.  Even if you have to pay to gain entry to a venue it is still a public place.

Examples of a public place

The Wilderness Gathering
National Parks
Forestry Commission land open to the public
Public footpaths
Bridleways
Any area where you do not have to ask permission to walk
 

The THIS list

Has THIS person got permission
To use THIS article
For THIS use
On THIS land
By THIS land owner.

If “No” applies to any of the above an arrest will be imminent.

 

The Laws Relating to Sharp Objects, Knives, Saws and Axes.

Violent Crime Reduction Act (2006)
   - Banned the sale of knives to the under 18 year olds
 
Knives Act (1997)
   - Prohibited the sale of combat knives
 
Offensive Weapons Act (1996)
   - Prohibited the sale of knives to the under 16 year olds
 
Criminal Justice Act (1988)
   - Published a list of prohibited martial arts style weapons and made it an offence to carry an article with a blade or sharp point in a public place
 
Criminal Damage Act (1971)
(1)   A person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any property belonging to another intending to destroy or damage any such property or being reckless as to whether any such property would be destroyed or damaged shall be guilty of an offence.

(2)   A person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any property, whether belonging to himself or another—

 (a) intending to destroy or damage any property or being    reckless as to whether any property would be destroyed or damaged; and

(b) intending by the destruction or damage to endanger the life of another or being reckless as to whether the life of another would be thereby endangered;

shall be guilty of an offence.

 
(3)   An offence committed under this section by destroying or damaging property by fire shall be charged as arson.
 
 
Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act (1959)
   - banned the carrying, manufacture, sale, purchase, hire or lending of flick-knives and "gravity knives"
 
 
Prevention of Crime Act (1953)
   - made it an offence to have an offensive weapon in a public place: including any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to any person
 
 
 
 

What can happen to you if you break the law concerning sharp objects?

 


Stop and Search, s1 PACE


The arrest procedure will inevitably follow as this is a high profile crime.
Charging
Court
Sentence
Maximum sentence - £5,000 fine and or up to 4 years in prison
Often the worst is yet to come – loss of job, friends, house etc.


Operation Blunt 2

During May and June 2008 the Metropolitan Policy carried out Operation Blunt 2 in London.  During this period:
1. 27,000 searches were made
2. 1,214 arrests were made
3. 528 knives were found
Figures from the Met Pol.
Other Figures

During 2007 there were:
1. 22,000 knife crimes including murder, GBH, woundings and robbery.
2. 7,409 in London, 2,303 in West Midlands and 351 in Northumbria so not all in cities. 
3. Rural knife crime is on the increase.
Figures from Home Office Press Release 17.07.2008.
 

Which knives are legal in a public place and which are not?

It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches.  The burden of proving the lawful authority lies with the defendant.  A knife which is capable through manufacture to be locked open or has a fixed blade is thus deemed illegal in a public place.

Advice on Transporting Knives, Axes and Saws

On foot in a public place

Bottom of rucksack – not in lid or at the top
Not on belt or around neck
By car

Not in glove compartment
Not within reach from seats where driver or passengers are sitting – treat knives like firearms
By train and bus

Bottom of rucksack – not in lid or at the top
Not on belt or around neck
By plane

CAA rules dictate that a knife, saw or axe may be carried in the hold luggage but not hand luggage.  Some airlines have their own policy on what may or may not be carried.


 

What can you do to stay within the law?

a. Try not to carry a knife, saw or axe at all.
b. Remember that ‘Just in case I need it’ is not an excuse that will work in a court of law.
c. Reasonable and practicable cause to carry.
d. Carry a knife that is not aggressive looking.
e. Ensure you have permission to carry a knife if you are on private property.
f. Try to have proof that you need /needed to carry the knife.
i. Spoon carving
ii. Documentation to prove that you are on the way to a course
iii. Written permission to use land for bushcraft and survival purposes
g. Whilst in a public place, if you have the need to carry a sharp object, make it as inaccessible as possible.
h. Do not hide the knife under your shirt.
i. If you are under 18, don’t carry a knife in public at all.  Use it in situ with an adult supervising.
j. Use a knife that is relevant to the activity you wish to carry out.  A machete is not great to take on a fishing trip.

 

What will happen if we ignore the law?

At the moment there are constabularies working a zero tolerance policy. 
This will become a nationwide policy soon.
If knife law is flouted it may become illegal to own some knives and this may include knives traditionally used for bushcraft.
The writing is already on the wall for lock-knives – a few more stabbings and that might be it.
As a hobby or way of life, bushcraft and all its practitioners should set a good example to the rest of the public.
It only needs a few incidents to make the purchase of knives very difficult.
Although ‘most’ stabbings on the news involve kitchen knives – politicians and law makers only see a sharp blade and a handle.
The future of bushcraft is in educating children.  Perhaps if we act responsibly they will be permitted to have knives.  A situation where it is illegal for people under 18 to own, carry or use a knife is not to big a step away.

Common sense applies to the carriage and use of bladed articles.  If in doubt ASK.  Every local constabulary has a website that can help, failing that please contact Survival School by way of e-mail.   
 

 

Ignorantia juris neminem excusat!

Ignorance of the law excuses no one!

 

[topless matt]

The knife i use is one of a locking type, an opinel.
I have been stopped before with it resting on top of my dashboard.
The officer was not impressed until i told him that i was going into a field of cattle to cut open some bales.
He then asked whether it was a locking knife, i said yes, it stops it closing on my fingers by accident if i get knocked by a cow. To which he said fairwell and went on his way,  i think a lot of it depends on the officer that stops you, more rural areas tend to get away with knife possesion more as there is more of a need for them as most of the residents are somehow related to agriculture

[winchman]

I might be throwing myself open to some comments here but such is life.

I would speak to a solicitor asap on this.

I would be interested to see what it says on the stop/search form that they should have completed. What act / power did they use? 

Comments about the need for 6 cops. There may well have been a high knife crime  or disorder problem in the area, which would explain what sounds like a van crew.

I'm a bit interested about why they wanted your user name for MC  :?

I just find it odd, especially as I always carry a Leatherman on my belt when on and off duty.

Some good advice.
I have carried a knife for over 30 years.
I dont any more as its far to easy to get done for posession.