Pay and Play Recovery gone wrong

[Mark_Solesbury]

Hey

I was at an off road site yesterday where a recovery went badly wrong.

First vehicle stuck nosed in a hole - light vehicle, small off roader.
Second vehicle offers recovery -  the best off roader in the world (im biased - I have one)

I only saw this in my rear view mirror, so cant be 100% accurate on what happened but it resulted in the stuck vehicle being pulled so fast backwards that it flipped over and crushed the roof in - badly.

Second vehicle drags first vehicle onto wheels, then promptly drove off.

The group I was with rushed over and checked the lad out, who was covered in mud, cuts to his hands, and very very angry.

He checked out OK - slight cut to wrist from door glass but nothing serious.

Anyhow - the main point to this is off road etiquette.

If I had recovered a vehicle and tipped it over id have been mortified - and done everything possible to ensure that the occupants were ok, get the vehicle and get the vehicle recovered properly - then discuss the next steps....

I think this was bang out of order.

If either party are reading this, shame on you or hope you are ok bud. Ive got a very powerful picture of the scene.

Thoughts?

[TechnoTurkey]

Were there any marshalls around or was it just a free for all?  Too many idiots let loose on these sites for my liking.

[Skibum346]

Were there any marshalls around or was it just a free for all?  Too many idiots let loose on these sites for my liking.

Wot 'e said!

Wish I'd seen it.. having a hard job trying to figure out how it happened... either way... you don't just drive off!

Ddi you see the offending imbecile again that day..?

Skibum

[Mark_Solesbury]

As I said, I only saw it in my rear view mirror..

The offending vehicle was seen leaving site very shortly after.

[dxmedia]

the best off roader in the world (im biased - I have one)

But your avitar pic is a landrover?

;)


I don't think you could hold the owner of the vehicle which did the recovery responsible, but to leg it, that's right out of order.

Do you have any pics you could post on the site?  May be as an example to people who don't know better how not to do things?

[Mark_Solesbury]

Dont get me wrong, i wasnt saying that the recovery bloke was responsible - I very much doubt he did it intentionally.

The point I was making was to do one without checking that everyone was out of order.

[Mark_Solesbury]

This is the image -

He was ok, just very annoyed and upset. If its you, and you want it removed, let me or a mod know to edit the post.

[dxmedia]

How did it happen?  Was it just too much speed which caused the flip?

[V8MoneyPit]

I have been involved in a recovery where the Suzuki I was towing fipped on it's side. I certainly would never have left the scene afterwards. It happens to have been a friend, but it wouldn't have been any different it I'd not known the person. In this case, we could see from film footage that the towed vehicle had a lot of steering lock on and rode up a bank. It came doen to lack of communication. But I still felt terrible about it even though the other driver reasured me that it wasn't my fault  :(

[Disco Matt]

Legging it like that is indeed bang out of order. If it was on a road, that would surely count as leaving the scene of an accident without exchanging details?

Excess speed seems to be a common recovery mistake, along with over-eagerness to use a winch or a kinetic rope when a bit of thought and a plain tow strap would get you out far more quickly and safely.

I've probably missed it but do we have a recovery techniques guide on here?

[V8MoneyPit]

Excess speed seems to be a common recovery mistake, along with over-eagerness to use a winch or a kinetic rope when a bit of thought and a plain tow strap would get you out far more quickly and safely.

I'd have to agree.... and disagree!!

Excess speed, yes.

But I would always argue the most controlled recovery method is winching. At times, it may be overkill, but it is limited on speed and far more controllable than towing. And communication is so much easier when the 2 parties involved are facing each other! With hindsight, my 'incident' would never have happened if I had been winching him out.

KERR.... most definately agree. The biggest problem here is lack of experience and knowledge for many people.

[ChrisW70]

I've probably missed it but do we have a recovery techniques guide on here?

Unfortunately, in these days of Health & Safety and litigation, it's something we can't really publish.

[J.D.]

I've probably missed it but do we have a recovery techniques guide on here?

Unfortunately, in these days of Health & Safety and litigation, it's something we can't really publish.

I have one I wrote a few months ago, could it not be published AS A GUIDE, not as a definitive bible so to speak.

[Brian the Sn@il]

Its always the Suzuki's isn't it ;)  Ive been to many, and if i had to say, what the vehicle that overturns the most, then i would have to say its a Suzuki :(

[Disco Matt]

I've probably missed it but do we have a recovery techniques guide on here?

Unfortunately, in these days of Health & Safety and litigation, it's something we can't really publish.

I have one I wrote a few months ago, could it not be published AS A GUIDE, not as a definitive bible so to speak.

Surely it'd be ok if it had a big solid disclaimer attached? Or if it was a list of things not to do (eg don't take off like a scalded cat, don't use unrated shackles)?

I would agree on winching being more controlled - I've just seen a few people who seem to think "oh, stuck, winch!" rather than "I'm stuck. Wonder if I can rock it out?"  :lol:

[mass199]

It's always good to have a sensible mate who you can trust when you need recovery.

Some people i wouldn't trust and would rather dig myself out with my bare hands!

[Bishops Finger]

Without knowing facts its 99% impossible to offer a view other than you should help other wheelers out when needed...

[ChrisW70]

I've probably missed it but do we have a recovery techniques guide on here?

Unfortunately, in these days of Health & Safety and litigation, it's something we can't really publish.

I have one I wrote a few months ago, could it not be published AS A GUIDE, not as a definitive bible so to speak.

Sorry, I should have made myself a bit clearer - technically we can't publish 'the mud club guide to recovery' but if someone wanted to start a thread along the lines of 'I'm stuck in a ditch - what's the best way to get recovered' sort of thing as a theoretical discussion...

[carbore]

Not that id given it much thought, but having not done a pay and play, but having done a lot of track days in the Elise I sort of expecteed them to operate in a similar way.

• Booked in advance, instructions sent before hand.
  "Drivers Briefing", everyone in a room and told the rules and ettique including overtaking on left and only by invitation, no overtaking in braking/corners,  what to do if you crash or brake down, what the marshals do etc.
  Drivers HAVE to attend the briefing to get a wrist band
  No wristband no track time
  If your late, you get a personal briefing and then a wrist band
  Recovery by approved people, we.g. dont stop by your mate whos had a crash, thats the marshals job
  Sign the disclaimers

Obviously 4x4 pay and play dont have overtaking, but surley a similar apprioach is wise for example

• You dont have to be recovered by anyone other than a marshal if you dont want to
  If someone is stuck in your way, tough, wait for them to be recovered by a marshal (or friend with thier ok)
  You have to attend a briefing
  You know what to do if you get stuck
  You knwo what to do if someone is injured
  You know where to drive and where not (e.g. dangerous thing linke mieshafts, I know about them i live in cornwall!)

Id hope this sort of thing happens?

I dont want to sound like the man form H&S but this is basic stuff, track days (like Pay and play) are not even motorsport covered by the MSA so most of this is just common sense or the track day company pleasing thier liability insurance.

Interestingly at a few trackdays there is some bloke who turns up and gets arsey durin the briefing saying, hurry up, we know what ere doing etc, often they are the ones who end up in the crash barriers.

[Mark_Solesbury]

• £20 on the gate
• Drive

Thats more like what happenes on a p&p day.

[J.D.]

Not that id given it much thought, but having not done a pay and play, but having done a lot of track days in the Elise I sort of expecteed them to operate in a similar way.

• Booked in advance, instructions sent before hand.
  "Drivers Briefing", everyone in a room and told the rules and ettique including overtaking on left and only by invitation, no overtaking in braking/corners,  what to do if you crash or brake down, what the marshals do etc.
  Drivers HAVE to attend the briefing to get a wrist band
  No wristband no track time
  If your late, you get a personal briefing and then a wrist band
  Recovery by approved people, we.g. dont stop by your mate whos had a crash, thats the marshals job
  Sign the disclaimers

Obviously 4x4 pay and play dont have overtaking, but surley a similar apprioach is wise for example

• You dont have to be recovered by anyone other than a marshal if you dont want to
  If someone is stuck in your way, tough, wait for them to be recovered by a marshal (or friend with thier ok)
  You have to attend a briefing
  You know what to do if you get stuck
  You knwo what to do if someone is injured
  You know where to drive and where not (e.g. dangerous thing linke mieshafts, I know about them i live in cornwall!)

Id hope this sort of thing happens?

I dont want to sound like the man form H&S but this is basic stuff, track days (like Pay and play) are not even motorsport covered by the MSA so most of this is just common sense or the track day company pleasing thier liability insurance.

Interestingly at a few trackdays there is some bloke who turns up and gets arsey durin the briefing saying, hurry up, we know what ere doing etc, often they are the ones who end up in the crash barriers.

Im glad to dsay that this is what hapens at TV4x4 events.

[ringo]

I have been involved in a recovery where the Suzuki I was towing fipped on it's side. I certainly would never have left the scene afterwards. It happens to have been a friend, but it wouldn't have been any different it I'd not known the person. In this case, we could see from film footage that the towed vehicle had a lot of steering lock on and rode up a bank. It came doen to lack of communication. But I still felt terrible about it even though the other driver reasured me that it wasn't my fault  :(

Yes Steve - it wasnt your fault at all (your a legend - hello mate  :lol:). It was a scary moment.

The trouble with that recovery - apart from the communication problem, was that we rushed into it. It seemed such a simple recovery and we missed the whacking great big hazard that caused the problem. A winch would have been so more controlled and im sure the accident would have been avoided. However, that would have taken a lot of time to sort out (which was the problem).

    * £20 on the gate
    * Drive


Thats more like what happenes on a p&p day.

Thats what happened on most of the P&P days i went to too. Scary. Especially the ones with loads of vehicles on. I got scared silly at one popular venue (and made my voice heard on here which didnt go down to well with the owner) as it was just mahem.

I really do need to get meself a play thing again...

Ringo

[ben-dent]

a couple of our local sites ave disclaimers, basically saying you are liable for any damage caused to your truck, and there are marshals on site, but they will not do recovery unless your not happy to be recovered by anyone else, we do our own recoveries in our group of friends, we go out in 4 or 5 trucks so there are always a few vehicles to give a helping hand,

[DoubleTop]

I've never been to a pay'n'play, only to club events.  I'd wager that the ones who go what they would call 'greenlaning' (other would say lane-trashing) have at some point been to a pay'n'play day and consider that the normal.

There are some very well controlled events, and some badly managed ones.  Happens in every sport/event/venue.

DT.

[Bishops Finger]

PnP sites are great...but the £20 admission useually taken up by mupppets in normally Zookz....does not good


Go to Buildwas  and see whats meant...

[ben-dent]

PnP sites are great...but the £20 admission useually taken up by mupppets in normally Zookz..

its not as much zooks any more its the non road legal discos and rangies that have had the back cut off and been bought on a trailer that are flying round the site without a care in the world,

i do club events, Green laning and P&P, i do have a heavy right foot when at P&P sites its a bit of fun on whit in my opinion is a safe enviroment but never when recovering someone as i would expect everyone else to do the same to me if i required recovery,

[V8MoneyPit]

I have never been to a P&P site where the organisation meets the same standard as trackdays. That's not to say they don't exist, just that I've never seen one.

However, there is huge variation in safety at different sites. As a rule, I find club organised events to be perfectly adequate on safety and generally well organised. They have to be. Their public liability insurance insists on it.

The commercial ventures often depend on the people running them. And what they run them for. Some sites start life as driver training centres. These obviously tend to be run by people who care about others safety.

Then there is the numbers of vehicles allowed on site. I believe a limit based on X number of vehicles per acre would provide a simple rule to avoid overcrowding. Again, this is down to how the site is run and how greedy the owners are.

Recovery at club events is often limited to officials. This way, inexperienced drivers can't be let loose with a KERR. I'm not sure if this could be implemented at P&P sites though. The cost of employing marshalls might put the entry fee through the roof.

[Disco Matt]

How about volunteer marshals (with relevant experience/knowledge) who get into the site free in return for their help?

It would be up to the organiser to determine what level of knowledge they feel necessary, although I would say that you could use anyone who can drive off road with the right attitude.

[dxmedia]

Places such as tong have marshalls who are paid. The marshalls then also charge for recovery (marshalls discretion).

What always puts shivers up me is when someone is winching with people crouding around the winch wire  :-.

Twice the distance away from the length of any strop / wire / rope being used.  That shackle or recovery point gives way on a 10 000 lb pull, then that shackle has just been given an 10 000lb kick up the arse till the strop reaches full length to stop it again.

Waffle boards are great, up to the point where they get slung out the back with a spinning wheel on them.

Winches are brilliant for controlled recover, but they are lethal, even in experienced hands. Bonnets up hey guys, that bonnet might just slow the shackle down enough so that when it punches through the windscreen it might only smash your face, not punch a hole through your skull.

kinetics are again brilliant, if you know both vehicles well and a confident that ALL of the recovery points / chassis members are strong enough. I'm sure we've all seen the youtube video of a landrover loosing it's rear cross member with a kerr attached.

highlifts, again, brilliant, but lethel. NEVER leave a high lift with the jack handle in anything but the locked up position.  Never work under a vehicle which is only held by a highlift.

Hand winches, useful, but if anything goes, your standing in the middle!!

Confidence in the equipment. Confidence in the person doing the recovery, and confidence in the person driving the recovered vehicle, and a complete understanding of liability if (when) something goes wrong. and get all bystanders well out of the way.

[wormster]

Only done 2 pay and play days, both on the Isle of Wight.

They were good fun, not too many vehicles about, I only had to rescued twice (1 on each day)

1st time I got "beached" on a berm - a gentle tow off with a strop.
2nd time I'd gone through a very deep and long puddle, lost the clutch, again a gentle tow out, foolishly I didn't leave the clutch to dry completely and it ended up being expensive in teh workshop!!

There was a briefing at the beginning of the day and we had to sign a disclaimer, Both days were well run by the I.O.W. 4x4 club, many thanks to you all, and to those from teh Island "Hi Guys" miss you lots!!