Mud-club
Chat & Social => The Bar - General Chat => Topic started by: woody on September 01, 2005, 22:16:30
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Ok now ive got your attention
i have been looking around for alternative fuels. for those of you who have not seen this there has been a small discusion on the Mitsubishi forum http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=11331
they have been discussing vegatable oil as an alternative fuel (50/50 mix)
has anybody tried it :?:
i will be following this up with some links shortly :D
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here are the links as i said
there seems to be a lot of grey area concerning the rate of tax payable
but for a drive who has a large milage it ncould work out a lot cheaper
http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/6/214.htm
http://www.ravenfamily.org/andyg/vegoil.htm
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/
http://www.pocuk.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=77&sid=6c2fa4bb0f766a11eb7c12f2fcfe2f20
http://www.ccorrn.org.uk/pdf/Biodiesel.pdf
http://www.dieselveg.com/conversion%20info.htm
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its definately something I want to try, my fear is damage to the engine though, I have yet to find a definitive "it will work in a 200tdi discovery" without modifications to fuel pumps etc
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well have a look at this
http://www.dieselveg.com/landrover_discovery.htm
it shows a conversion from diesel veg
good website :D
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As i understand it the fuel duty payable makes it unrealistic unless you are getting your oil for virtualy free. Great is you own a chipshop :D
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One company is selling the oil at 66p a litre (Collection only somewhere near Wolverhampton Handy for Bob?) with the duty and VAT paid.
So you should be able to get it down to at least that as they must be making a profit on it.
The higher the cost of Diesel the more viable it becomes.
http://www.dieselveg.com/conversion%20info.htm
About half way down the page.
Ed
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Why the hell the government isn't putting more into this I don't know. Vegitable oils I understand do not have the same heavy emissions that fossile fuel oils do, although they smell like a chip-shop. Some bus companies already use this stuff.
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Why the hell the government isn't putting more into this I don't know.
Yes you do... the same reason that we don't have widely available bio-diesel... politics and money.
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As i understand it the fuel duty payable makes it unrealistic unless you are getting your oil for virtualy free. Great is you own a chipshop :D
have a look at the dieselveg website
if you by from Morrisons, tesco, asda etc. @43pence per litre
pay the lower rate at 27ish +vat then it saves about 25ppltr
and thats worth it
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AND WHY DO YOU PAY VAT ON TAX :? :? :? :?
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hi, ive got a 3.8 perkins in my rangie, would that run on vegie mix :?:
thanks in advance john.
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hi, ive got a 3.8 perkins in my rangie, would that run on vegie mix :?:
thanks in advance john.
have a read through the websites at the top of this post
they seem to indicate that you can but read first to confirm
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I occasionally run my 3.0lt hilux surf on a 50/50 diesel/veg oil mix....it runs fine and if anything, a little smoother. I get 20ltr cans of the stuff from costco which works out about 43p per ltr. :)
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Again I would like to point out that whilst vegetable oil can be used as fuel for diesel vehicles, it can only be used when the correct duty has been paid upo it.
I'm not making any allegations that anyone isn't doing that, just wanted to make it perfectly clear that not paying duty is illigal and that such actions are not endorsed in any way :)
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I went to Tesco's yesterday and noticed the diesel is now at 98.9 p per litre! thats a jump of 3p in three days! Disgusting is'nt it?
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The barrel price is still at the highest ever due to the effects of hurricane Katrina, that is the reason behind the increases now.
Sadly, I have no doubt they won't go back down when the production / processing facilities are back online... *that* is the bad thing :-(
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One company is selling the oil at 66p a litre (Collection only somewhere near Wolverhampton Handy for Bob?) with the duty and VAT paid.
Cheers Ed
Guess where I am going tomorrow :lol:
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One company is selling the oil at 66p a litre (Collection only somewhere near Wolverhampton Handy for Bob?) with the duty and VAT paid.
Cheers Ed
Guess where I am going tomorrow :lol:
You could have done with some of that for your jaunt around Scotland. I bet you got through some fuel.
Ed
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You could have done with some of that for your jaunt around Scotland. I bet you got through some fuel.
We did that in the 110 (V8 ). The 2 weeks including the trip upto langdale cost us around £330 :roll:
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Where will be first, £1.00 a litre, our local is £0.99.9 per litre.
I can actual remember when it went to a £1 per gallon, about 30 years ago,
and my mother moaning like hell about that.
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:lol: :lol: :lol: Fitted a twin tank system to my def 90 last month.Only start up on diesel now the rest of the time i switch over to veg oil.Ah the great smell of cheap fuel. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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i think we need to have a chat phil & let me have a look round your setup as ive just fitted my tdi into my 90,also just finished rewiring it after the fire
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i've heard of people doing this on boats
just about any old fashioned diesel will run on a 50/50 mix (i.e. not a common rail injection engine)
in fact, it will run on pure veg oil.
BUT the problem comes when you switch the engine off.
as the veg oil cools, it gets thicker, and this can gunge up fuel pumps, making them impossible to start again.
one conversion i have seen starts teh engine on diesel, then, once up to running temperature switches over to 100% oil. then 5 minutes before you stop, you switch it back to diesel. which is all well and good, until you forget one day and then have to get the pump overhauled, which is uber expensive.
for me, who is incredibly forgetful, its just not worth the risk.
having said all of that, my dad runs 30% veg oil in his M reg vauxhall astra, and has done for a while with no problems
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the problem comes when you switch the engine off.
as the veg oil cools, it gets thicker, and this can gunge up fuel pumps, making them impossible to start again.
one conversion i have seen starts teh engine on diesel, then, once up to running temperature switches over to 100% oil. then 5 minutes before you stop, you switch it back to diesel.
yeh
the system only costs about £65 with an alarm to remind you to switch
see link http://www.dieselveg.com/quick_purge.htm
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So, let me get this right, I could have say 3/4 tank of diesel and then put regular veggie oil in to top it up ?
As in, normal veggie oil from say Makro or any other trade warehouse ?
And this would work on a HGV too ?
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So, let me get this right, I could have say 3/4 tank of diesel and then put regular veggie oil in to top it up ?
As in, normal veggie oil from say Makro or any other trade warehouse ?
And this would work on a HGV too ?
Don't forget to pay the required fuel duty fund on top!
cheers
8)
Eeyore
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Indeed... and don't forget... the burden of proof is with YOU to prove that you have paid duty, rather than with them to prove you haven't.
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i run my little citroen ax diesel on cooking oil and i find if i use about a tenner in diesel and the rest in oil its fine(normally £35 to fill it) and ive just started doing the same on my series 2a but it does have a 2.5 diesel transit engine.
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Just spoke to the guys at dieselveg.
They recommend their kit so as to provide a way of switching between the 2 (just like a lpg system).
They do not recommend actually running a diesel on veg oil. They dont recommend using a 50/50 split.
However they were cagey about what percentage mix you COULD use.....
Is a 10% or 20% mix going to thin it down enuff ?
Apparantly the veg oil needs to be above 70 degrees to burn properly and below that will form thick globules that can stick inside bores or injectors etc.
Whats the mathematics behind thinning it down or behind the actual mix percentage required to just start putting oil in with the diesel ?
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of corse they will say that or they wont be able to sell their kit.
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yes - absolutely - but where is the matchs behind what is and is not a safe mix
Not that i would be considering running a fleet on it.............
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i found out the best mix through trial and error really and its about a 70% oil to petrol mix. if it wont start all you have to do is drain your fuel filter and fill it with diesel and away you go
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if you actually go to some of those south american countries you find they run the lorrys on it out there
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Have just stuck 6 litres of veggie oil in tank......
will let you know....
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before i converted i was happily running a mix of 30% veg oil to diesel in my tdi with no probs what so ever.
well only one problem all the hungry kids on the estate were following me!
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I did know a guy who used to run a 200tdi Disco all the time on a 50/50 mix. It is a bit smelly following it though, customs would notice easily.
Being in shipping we sent a Sample to FOBAS (They analise our fuel) Don't use old cooking oil at all, it came back as very acidic and would damage the engines.
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Yep, Im running ( purely as an experiment ) @ 20% new veg oil and no problems what so ever.
A friend of mine is going to try it in his company vehicles.
The TDI actually seems smoother. Could be a trick of the mind, but it seems smoother.
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:lol: Not a trick of the mind veg oil is a far superior lubricant compared to the sulphur they add to diesel.
So it should be smoother and quieter with less diesel knock
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of corse they will say that or they wont be able to sell their kit.
I was round there lockup about 4pm yesterday and chatted to them for about 45 mins (betweeen phone calls). Their main business is the sale of the conversion kit so theya re bound to try and sell it to you to avoid the "dire consiquences".
I am trying a 25L to 15L mix at the moment which is about 60% I guess. Not doen many miles yet but the engine does sound happier :shock:
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I'd keep your receipts with you in the motor Bob. After all by buying from them with the duty already paid you're not doing anything wrong.
I think a lot of people would be using it legally if it was easier to pay the duty. Me, I'm paranoid and wouldn't want to lose my vehicle.
Ed
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In 1996, France’s Centre for International Cooperation in Developing Agro technical Research fuelled a Renault on rapeseed oil for 61,000 miles. Proving there are alternative fuels that can be used successfully without engine damage as long as the guidelines are followed, the kits are of a good standard and competent professionals carry out the installation work.
Extract from the Veggievan:
just found this on the diesel veg site http://www.dieselveg.com
and it sounds very interesting :D :D :D
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IN THE SHORT TERM IS A GREAT IDEAR GREAT SAVINGS ALOT MESSING ABOUT AND IN THE LONG RUN YOU WONT SAVE ANY THINK COS YOUR ENGINE WILL BE DEAD THE PROPERTIES IN VEG OIL ARE NOT THE SAME AS IN NORMAL OIL BEEN READING MANY ARTICLES AND THREADS FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY TRIED AND THE RESULTS ARE GREAT WHEN STARTED AND ALL SAY SAME THINK AFTER 12-18 MONTHS DEAD ENGINES KNACKERD FUEL PUMPS AND INJECTORS I WAS LOOKING BACK IN 1995 WHEN I HAD MY OWN TRANSPORT BUISNESS AND THERE WERE A FEW COMMERCIAL FIRMS WHO WHERE TRYING THIS NEW DEVELOPMENT OUT AND EVEN THEN THE RESULTS WERE THE SAME ME I WOULD NOT PUT ANYTHINK ELSE BUT CLEAN DIESEL IN MY LANDYS WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS GET STRONG AS A NATION AND TELL MR BROWN WERE TO STICK HIS FUEL PRICES AND HIS EXCESSIVE VAT AND TAXES (SORRY TO RAMBLE ON THATS WHY I DO NOT OWN MY OWN BUISNESS ANYMORE I COULD NOT COMPETE WITH THE HIGH FUEL PRICES AND TAXES THAT US HAULIERS HAVE TO PAY )I HATE THIS SUBJECT IT GETS ME SO MAD!!
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i average 6000-10,000 per year so the short term is 6-10 years
unlike haulage vehicles i worked on around 200+ thou km per 1st year
so it is a possability :D
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also almost three quarters of the price of fuel is tax
lets start by fighting to get that reduced
then lets take away our dependency on petrolium based fuels by creating an alternative
an alternative that can be replaced (possably help 3rd world countries out of debt)
if we dont need as much petrol/diesel then we are taking the pressure off suppliers
they won't be able to dictate the price to the rest of the world as they will have real competition for the first time
this is me rambling now
but more choice over what we put in our tanks can only mean more competative pricing :lol: :lol:
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i got to agree with you there mate take a look at this just found on the amusing websites link
Ananova:
Inventor turns dead cats into diesel [/size]
A German inventor says he's found a way to make cheap diesel fuel out of dead cats.
Dr Christian Koch, 55, from Kleinhartmannsdorf, said his method uses old tyres, weeds and animal cadavers.
They are heated up to 300 Celsius to filter out hydrocarbon which is then turned into diesel by a catalytic converter.
He said the resulting "high quality bio-diesel" costs just 15 pence per litre.
Koch said the cadaver of a fully grown cat can produce 2.5 litres of fuel - meaning around 20 cats are needed for a full tank.
He said: "I tank my car with my own diesel mixture and have driven it for 105,000 miles without any problems."
Annelise Krauss of the Dresden Animal Protection Association blasted Koch's new diesel though, saying: "This is as bad as experimenting on animals."
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im looking at designing some sort of cat trap now he he
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regardless of what we do the government wont reduce fuel duty.once we have an alternative they will just tax that as highly.they rely on the motorist to line their pockets.
all i'll say is feck them once i've got enough cash scraped together i'm leaving for sunnier climes.
sick off being taxed at source,taxed on everything i buy,taxed on any money i manage to save,and if i live long enough my pension will be taxed too!
Rant over!
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regardless of what we do the government wont reduce fuel duty.once we have an alternative they will just tax that as highly.they rely on the motorist to line their pockets.
all i'll say is feck them once i've got enough cash scraped together i'm leaving for sunnier climes.
sick off being taxed at source,taxed on everything i buy,taxed on any money i manage to save,and if i live long enough my pension will be taxed too!
Rant over!
Phill,Fancy goin 1/2's on a nice pad in monaco?? :lol: :lol:
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sure mikee only thing is it would need a huge garage for all our motors