Mud-club
Chat & Social => The Bar - General Chat => Topic started by: SteveG on March 14, 2006, 19:01:20
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Well know London based 4x4 Supplier rumoured to have questionable business ethics...
Just heard that this certain supplier, after selling them for a few months, are copying X-Eng's disc brake solution and now selling them as their own.
If any of you know Simon at X-Eng he is a true Off-Road and LR enthusiast and has come up with some excellent and well engineered ideas. He has been successful in growing a small business on the side and has spent considerable time, effort and money to get it going with several new ideas on the way.
Why this supplier, for a few more pounds in margin want to put someone like this out of business just amazes me. I hope they realise that these sort of tactics in a realtively small community will come back to bite them - I hope anyway!!! And they can't claim they are doing it for the enthusiast as their price is more than X-Eng's!
I have bought several items from them in the past - but they won't be getting any more of my money!!! :evil: :evil:
Just my opinion on this rumour :wink:
Cheers
Steve
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well hopefully everyone will go for the cheaper original option.
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I think we all know who your talking about. I agree very questionable practice ! :(
I dont like their gear anyway ! :D
Just my oppinion
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there where similar alligations going around a while ago about a north east indepenant 4x4 specialists doing the same thing but as I recall nothing has come of it that I have heard of.....as yet.
It seems to be happening all too often that one person wil rip off anothers idea.
The main thing about it is though the copies tend to be substandard so that when they break all most people see is the item an associate the product with the original maker.
This causes the worst type damage to the original makers - a damaged reputation - this spreads around the community quickly and has the knock on effect of loss of sales etc.
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This is flying all over the web like widfire. They could regret this........
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They do like copying other peolpes idea's though
:roll:
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tis spreading like wildfire isnt it. Been watching it develop since this am (been off work)
there is certainly some momentum seemingly gathering.
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Name n shame them :D
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No naming and shaming on this forum. Some people here will have direct legal obligations to fulfil if that happens!
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Why was original thread pulled ? :?:
Not pointing fingers, Just wondered ! :D
This is massive. I here T-shirts ans stickers are on the way ! :D
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indeed.
I would like to thank SteveG for having kept this in mind with this post, besides, I think we all know who we're talking about ...
Now.. where have I seen that ground anchor before :?
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Bullfrog,
The thread wasn't pulled, but there are people who run this board that cannot allow things like this (current situation) to be published on a board they are responsible for.
Mud-club is free to join, granted, however - if the supplier decided to come after all the boards spreading this information, who do you think would be liable, and who would have to pay?
Not the people posting - but the owners of the servers/boards.
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Why was original thread pulled ? :?:
Not pointing fingers, Just wondered ! :D
This is massive. I here T-shirts ans stickers are on the way ! :D
The original thread wasn't "pulled" as hidden whilst we considered our actions. Mud-Club is legally liable for the content of the site, and this is, at least legally still unsubstantiated rumour. As such with people being named and shamed, we could be held liable for slander.
This was explained to SteveG who then reworded the posts to hopefully protect us in some way, as his complaint is about a nameless supplier.
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The company in question does'nt need naming.
If you know, great. If you dont, dont worry about it.
:)
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Its like DOG MESS .......absolutely everywhere.............oh well , got my own problems with that other COWBOY tyre company..........
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I fully understand and appreciate the responce :D
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What ever happend to freedom of speech I know theirs no such thing.
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Dave :-)
Freedom of speech is something the Americans have in their constitution. But do you realise we are subjects ...... and as such, technically do not have this right! :oops:
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its freedom of speech as long what you saw is monitored and doesnt offend anyone ;)
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Mate nothing would surprise me about this country any more. Nothing is free in this live.
EXCEPT THE MUD-CLUB OF COURSE :wink: 8)
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....Nothing is free in this live.
:wink: 8)
...that is unless you steal it!
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Dave that would be wrong to no doubt. :roll:
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What ever happend to freedom of speech I know theirs no such thing.
Nothing to do with freedom of speech... just a case of avoiding probems in our ever-increasingly litigant world.
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What ever happend to freedom of speech I know theirs no such thing.
You are forgeting where you are in jolly old blighty
YOU are a subject of the crown you are property of the state
what you certainly are NOT is a citizen in the american sence
and you never will be if parlement has its way...
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Well... nice to see that this has turned into a moan about the club and the country...
I thought it was about people nicking other people's designs.... I must have been wrong :roll:
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Your right Tim, Thanks by the way for sorting my bushes. Got them today. Have posted thanks on D44 forum. :D
I hope no one pilfers my designs. Not that they will be as well engineered! 8)
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sadly it's not unknown for people to copy other designs, and the european patent laws make protecting yourself basically laughable (don't get me started on software patents)
Now, I appreciate that this is to some extent a rumour at present, but I wouldn't be suprised in the slightest if it happened to be true, along with other rumours of defective parts and who knows what else.
then again, at least it makes the shows easier.. you only need to go to one stand to see a design you like, then work out who's it is and go buy it from them instead :)
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then again, at least it makes the shows easier.. you only need to go to one stand to see a design you like, then work out who's it is and go buy it from them instead :)
Very very well put. I have been thinking of a way to get this topic back on track for a bit, now i don't need to as that sums it up perfectly :wink:
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what I do find a little odd is that this is only causing upset now. Granted there is a slight difference in that this is a much smaller company that is being taken for a ride, however it strikes me as more than coincidental that some of their designs so closely resemble other "larger" makes.
Add to that questions of reliability which are most likely stirred up by rumours, and the further rumours of lousy support (post everything back and we might give you a replacement?) and I personally wonder why people still give them money.
then again, I'm probably missing the point, it's a known trait of mine.
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what I do find a little odd is that this is only causing upset now. Granted there is a slight difference in that this is a much smaller company that is being taken for a ride, however it strikes me as more than coincidental that some of their designs so closely resemble other "larger" makes.
Add to that questions of reliability which are most likely stirred up by rumours, and the further rumours of lousy support (post everything back and we might give you a replacement?) and I personally wonder why people still give them money.
then again, I'm probably missing the point, it's a known trait of mine.
note: This is of course all in my humble opinion, which neither reflects the opinion of mud-club as an entity, or even reality since it has been far too long since I slept and I am paying rather too much attention to the rumour mill.
I am however tired of mud-club being dragged into the argument, or criticised for being overly cautious when it comes to lawsuits. I've taken great pains to not mention any company names, and repeat, once again for anyone that may still care this is all opinion, and as such may be utter codswallop
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I guess the advertising methods of certain companys
plus the garish paint schemes bring out the chav in
some owners and they will buy because its bling not because its any good :!:
and some ppl do fall into the {it costs a fortune it must be kin good}
catagory .
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I try to make things right in the first place then they wont need to send it back ! Mine are a flash colour but I do offer a choice ! :lol:
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mmm talk of such could lead me on to said company selling Diff guards which bear a striking resembalence to the same sold by a certian Cornish company. Who IIRC have been making then for years, and have been recognised as such for while as being very good. A few blatent copies have appeared in the last year or so. I'm not saying it's true but have a look and make your own decision. It seems that the Off road Accessory industry, t'is a dirty one for plagarising.
Bad form to those who do plagarise.
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And donf forget what happened to Equipe4x4 the origional extreme kit and base fit and there steeringuards....? it all looks close to it ..! see for yourself on www.equipe.com and www.lrsoffroad.co.uk
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what is it with this club these days it spends more time slagging , complaining,and discussing whats been pulled and why when i joined it was a good humered OFF ROAD forum dicussing OFF ROADING not the polatics of the off road seen ive got to admit i spend less time now on the forum than i used to, lets get a grip and get back to the real reason the clubs here, :( :lol: :lol: :lol:
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amen to that, why do you think I've not been around ?
I have had *quite* enough of people second guessing our moderators and admins.
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i think you will find there are a few of us that have got a bit dissolusioned lately, and migrated to other forums, dont get me wrongthe club still has a place on my desktop , and is still a great source of knowledge, thats what it should it be, THE PAST IS THE KEY TO THE FUTURE
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I'll get this first thing straight. I'm not questioning the Moderators actions, just the reason why the Moderators took the action.
A driver got his motor stuck in a field after trying to prove that it was a capable off-roader. I recovered it, a m8 photographed it. When I got home I posted it on this forum because I found it amusing. The Mods locked the thread.
Why?
Because someone, somewhere was worried that the "anti's" would see it and it would further thier cause. Fair play to the Mods, they had a complaint and followed it up and sent me a PM explaining why, reasons which I support them for.
My "problem" with it is this. Kow-towing to the anti's and a fear of supplying them with ammunition is stifling free discussing and tales of derring doo - which is surely what this forum is about.
Tell me I'm wrong. Please.
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I'll get this first thing straight. I'm not questioning the Moderators actions, just the reason why the Moderators took the action.
That's pretty much the same thing as far as I can see...
A driver got his motor stuck in a field after trying to prove that it was a capable off-roader. I recovered it, a m8 photographed it. When I got home I posted it on this forum because I found it amusing.
Or... a driver who had been drinking, drove illegally on private land.. and got stuck.. and then someone else drove on the field too to prove a point.
The Mods locked the thread.
Why?
Because someone, somewhere was worried that the "anti's" would see it and it would further thier cause. Fair play to the Mods, they had a complaint and followed it up and sent me a PM explaining why, reasons which I support them for.
My "problem" with it is this. Kow-towing to the anti's and a fear of supplying them with ammunition is stifling free discussing and tales of derring doo - which is surely what this forum is about.
Tell me I'm wrong. Please.
OK.. you are wrong.
Trust me.. I've happily gone to the mat with the antis... on many occasions. But tales of 'derri doo' like that make it very hard to build a compelling case that we aren't as bad as they want people to believe.
There is no kow-towing, but there is a stand that the admins and moderators, as the people responsible for the site, choose to take... and do so.
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Believe it or not I am going to take the moderators side. This forum is tries to get the members to take the GLASS code to heart and would not want to encourage members to disregard the advise given for responsible greenlaning. Although there are stil pictures of multi convoys going down greenlanes, I thought the recommended max was three. But it must be great to have a convoy of 4x4. intimadating for others though.
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Ok muddyweb pal :wink:
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when we sign up to the club, we do so knowing the mods are there to do a job, they do it end of story, lets move on,
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I can't comment on the exact case in question, but generally the guidelines are as follows.
The moderators will allow any number of discussions providing that it isn't rude, especially offensive or libelous.
If they recieve a complaint then it will be investigated and appropriate action taken, Appropriate action is usually locking the thread, since this doesn't remove what has been said (since it's been said already) but usually calms the situation down, and gives participents a little time to cool off, or reconsider their actions. It's also a pretty impressive way of ending an argument.
Conspiracy theories asside, *very* few threads are ever deleted, those which are, are done so for good reason. Be they a threat to the club via some form of litigation, or in some cases a breach of the guildlines.
Mud-Club is a club, not just a forum, the forum is merely an extension of that. because of this nature we have various legal interests which we must protect, otherwise there simply won't be a club anymore.
I know this causes some people to go "uuurggh censorship", but frankly I am *far* beyond caring. Various people have with unfounded accusation after accusation questioned my morality, my integrety, and at times my parentage. I'm not naming names, nor directing this at anyone in particular, the guilty parties know fine well who they are.
Frankly this ends, now... Mud-Club is what it is, and if you don't like it, well go somewhere you do like.
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what is it with this club these days it spends more time slagging , complaining,and discussing whats been pulled and why when i joined it was a good humered OFF ROAD forum dicussing OFF ROADING not the polatics of the off road seen ive got to admit i spend less time now on the forum than i used to, lets get a grip and get back to the real reason the clubs here, :( :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'll tell you why it is... because the membership put up with it.
If you look at any other forum where this thread was posted, it is full of messages of supoport for x-eng, etc... but not here... here someone will find an opportunity to have a dig at the club and the way the forum is run.
And, as ever, the people who take the time to run the thing get it in the neck from a few people who don't like something... trouble is, since we're the only ones who stand up and say it, we get branded with all sorts of names, and get accused of censorship, etc. etc. etc.
If the club wants to be back the way it was... the members will have to take it there, we can't drag it there on our own.
I vote for at least one day when we all refrain from whining and moaning about the tinyest little thing.... how does that sound ?
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fine by me , it can start right now
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Well here is my opinion, for what it is worth.
As far as I can see having been on mud club from the start I have watched it build from 2 or 3 hundred to 2 or 3 thousand members and as far as I can see it is heading for self destruct.
It will either have the plug pulled by the Admin team because they have had enough (and who can blame them with all the critics out there)
Or somebody out there will post something, the brown stuff will hit the fan and the plug will be pulled for legal reasons.
So please wind your necks in and stop moaning about the things the moderators do VOLUNTERALLY and say thank you for clearing up after us all and please don't turn the lights off when you leave.
Every body has the right to shoot them selves in the foot but if you do it on a www forum you are shooting every body else foot as well and that is irresponsible.
That has got that off my chest and may I take this opportunity to say thank you to all the admin/moderators and please don't let the moaning minority spoil it for the grateful majority
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I'll tell you why it is... because the membership put up with it.
Cool, i usually sit here biting my tongue.....
Not anymore :wink:
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(http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s29/smilies-44304.png)
OK Gents, put the subject down, turn around, keep your typing fingers where I can see them and walk slowly towards me. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/aktion/action-smiley-028.gif)
Now, kiss and make up (http://70.85.81.229/3657/43/emo/cabe64de.gif) and lets all get back to slagging off a certain company who will remain nameless! :D
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Lovely Weather today eh chaps.... :P
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Two things
1) X-Eng also get my vote, and my business, the other party, won't get any more brass from me.
2) Well said Tull .................. let's get back to basics ................ and have a laugh along the way :wink:
No; I'll make that 3 things ..................... The mods / admins have my full support :) I've not had a problem with owt' they've done in the past, more the reverse, think they are fairly leanient really .............. well done guys
Dave
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can someone please PM me with the company name as i have no idea of who you are on about. sorry if you think i and thick. :oops:
but if we all stick together and not use this company then the other company's will not try the same thing to others who come up with great ideas that we all use at some time in our life of 4x4's fun. :lol: :D
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If you look at any other forum where this thread was posted, it is full of messages of supoport for x-eng, etc... but not here... here someone will find an opportunity to have a dig at the club and the way the forum is run.
Sadly M-C isn't the only one; the same has happened on the LRO forum; the thread has been locked as a result of 'the few' using it as an opportunity to have a dig at the mag and forum in general. (I might add that an unpaid mod locked it, not a member of LRO staff.) thread here (http://threads.lro.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=forum&Number=765011&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5)
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mmm talk of such could lead me on to said company selling Diff guards which bear a striking resembalence to the same sold by a certian Cornish company. Who IIRC have been making then for years, and have been recognised as such for while as being very good. A few blatent copies have appeared in the last year or so.
Tricky one. You could probably argue that there are only a certain number of ways you can make a diff guard. I own a roof rack which is remarkably similar to another (older) type, but in my opinion it's improved and better! I'm not condoning copying other people's ideas, but I think it's quite a complex situation when you get down to it.
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Sorry my post brought up this old topic again :oops:
I just want to add that Neil and the other mods managed it very well in my opinion and personally I respect the fact that they give up time and money to run this forum for us, and as such I respect their guidelines for posting.
I posted the first posting naming a certain company in North London and with several expletives with '*' in the appropriate places. This post vanished but as we all know there have been a few gremlins of late and as per guidance on top of forum I posted again. This time with the expletives removed as I had clamed down a bit by then. This post was removed also, but Neil had already PM'd me and also posted to make sure I was aware.
I saw the post, PM'd back and suggested verbage that might be ok. Neil was ok with this and hence the current post.
In my view this was managed extremely well and I have no issues with the moderators or with censorship. I respect the way they want to run the site, end of story as far as I am concerned.
Long live Mud Club and I hope that the future is not orange and bright for a ceratin 4x4 parts supplier :wink: :wink: If anyone else still doesn't know who is being referred to have a look at some of the sig graphics with the 'No Entry' signs stamped on them or visit www.lr4x4.com for a quick peak :D
Cheers
Steve
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I'm not condoning copying other people's ideas, but I think it's quite a complex situation when you get down to it.
Thats probably the first bit of sense thats been spoken about this 'copying' issue all the way through this thread.
Designs cannot be easily protected and even when they are you would need one hell of a legal team and funds to do anything about it. Look at Dyson v Hoover . . . . it took years and a sum of money that few of us, businesses included, could ever hope to afford, to sort out the problems they had between them regarding Dysons 'Cyclonic' vacuum cleaning system and Hoovers 'similar' product. (Incidently, cyclonic systems have used in industrial dust extraction systems for many years - Dyson only 'copied' the idea).
In the world of engineering, designers are often to be found purchasing a competitors product, dissmantling it and reverse engineering a 'new' product from it. Yeah it's a questionable practice, but that's life and if there's money involved then you can be sure that someone will take advantage of what is available, that is always a driving force.
How do people think progress is made and new inovations reach the general public? . . . . . . I'll tell you . . . . it's usually through research and development and something which I spend a lot of my working hours undertaking.
No-one has carte-blanche on the 4X4 scene and anyone with the knowledge and tools could produce the very great majority of the typical 'bolt-on' protection kits, I mean, they are not exactly rocket science are they and mostly overpriced. A sheet of plate steel, a plasma cutter and a decent welder and you are away . . . . as many DIYers already do . . . . but are they getting stick for 'copying' an existing design? . . . . no, they get a pat on the back and told that it's a nice effort or a cool bit of kit.
True 'innovation' is not very noticable in the 4x4 world as most of it has already been done before . . . . generally by the military.
The fact someone else has already done some work on a product and put it in the public domain doesn't automatically give them rights to that design and in fact, the act of putting it in the public domain automatically excludes the design from attaining any form of protection under patent law. At that point anyone is entitled to reproduce, copy, modify or do whatever they want to whatever degree they choose . . . just look at the Japanesse engining industry of couple of decades ago. Very little original design and a great deal of 'copying'.
Even existing patented designs have full technical specifications available from the patents offices for anyone to view and use for their own purposes. It may not be altogether ethically correct . . . . but niether are many other aspects of our lives and work.
Generally what is happening is called competition, and it helps to keep the prices down for all of us. If it wasn't there and designers could fully protect their products there would likely be a 'monopoly' and that is always bad as it drives product prices artificially high. It is healthy to promote competition as it makes the designers strive to produce the best product that they hope will become the market leader thus ensuring their continued success in the marketplace.
We as consumers have a choice - we pay our money and take our pick.
If we choose the wrong one, from quality, cost, ethical or other considerations, then thats our problem.
I'm not sticking up for the bad guys - I'm just speaking as a mechanical design engineer and trying to get things back into perspective.
What I'm saying is that we need these that copy others products in order to maintain the high standards and quality that we have now become accostomed to. It gives us a choice however 'unfair' it may be seem to be on the original designers . . . . and lets face, there are lots of companies selling very 'similar' off-road products. Truth be known, I doubt any one of them could ever honestly claim to be the originators of the designs they sell.
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I'm not condoning copying other people's ideas, but
Generally what is happening is called competition, and it helps to keep the prices down for all of us. If it wasn't there and designers could fully protect their products there would likely be a 'monopoly' and that is always bad as it drives product prices artificially high. It is healthy to promote competition as it makes the designers strive to produce the best product that they hope will become the market leader thus ensuring their continued success in the marketplace.
We as consumers have a choice - we pay our money and take our pick.
If we choose the wrong one, from quality, cost, ethical or other considerations, then thats our problem.
I think the point here though is there was an existing business relationship between the two companies. The owner also stated at the start of this relationship that they would not rip off the design. This company has chosen to copy the design, sell it at a higher price purely to make more margin.
They are doing it to make more money, not benefit the enthusiast with a lower price.
The fact that they had an existing relationship when they did this gives me personally a really bad view of their business ethics and for this reason I would never do business with them again or advise anyone I know to do so.
That's why it's different.
Steve :D
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I think the point here though is there was an existing business relationship between the two companies
Interesting point mate. I worked for a company that was owned by two partners and a similar thing happened. A gentleman's agreement was made when they split their separate ways that one wouldn't copy the other. However, the 'other' quickly broke his word and claimed that as he was a partner in the original business then he had the right to reproduce designs made by the company during the time he was with them as they were joint designs and he had direct input to the design in the first place.
As no legal rights to the design existed he went ahead and did his best to undermine the original company and it's product. To this day the 'other' company still markets a very similar piece of equipment, (talking about industrial machinery and process plant here), claiming that there are loads of other cometitors in the market producing what is basically the same equipment.
A very tricky situation for those concened and not knowing the in's and out's of what happened I would reserve judgment on the case you cite.
Credit for your loyalty to the one who you believe has the sole right to produce the kit though. True brand loyalty there mate. Given the same situation I would probably feel the same. It's all about ethics and morals and how we feel with ourselves at the end of the day.
In the case of the personal situation I described above, I now work as designer for another company making . . . . . . Yep!!! a variation on the design that caused all the trouble in the first place :lol:
Such is the design and engineering business mate . . . very cut-throat . . . . ethically it's sad but true :wink:
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just a quicky...
first, thanks for the link to the other threads... have now worked out the 'offending company' and will be placing by hard ernd' in someone else's pockets in future
second, thanks to the mods for doing what they do, it is far beyond my tech knowledge and i admire them for their time, patience and little bit of decent space on this e'r world wide web.
third, easy one this... if you don't like the site... go else-where.. not difficult,
forth and last, please don't slag off the mods, i am sure constructive comments are welcom but winge's just 'p' them and other users off with negative attitute, it is contagious and is not for the better of the club.
i have not been around for a while as i'm a little ragged off with the whole 4x4 thing at the mo. wot with anti's doing their thing, the goverment doing its and the disco breaking down three times (complate new air suspension anyone??. intenal arguing and winging of lost posts etc get really anoying after a while and can put ppl off this otherwise enjoyable part of motoring
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You only have to change 30% of a product to get around copyright/patent laws. This can be as simple as changing colours or materials used.
On a happier note,
Thanks to the Mods and Admin gurus for a good site. :)
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Bullfrog,
The thread wasn't pulled, but there are people who run this board that cannot allow things like this (current situation) to be published on a board they are responsible for.
Mud-club is free to join, granted, however - if the supplier decided to come after all the boards spreading this information, who do you think would be liable, and who would have to pay?
Not the people posting - but the owners of the servers/boards.
And what you say on a forum or in chat rooms matters just as much as any other published medium.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/23/internet_libel_payout/
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its freedom of speech as long what you saw is monitored and doesnt offend anyone ;)
Mmm yes i have always thought we lived under a dictatorship. They will either lock you up or shoot you for that in some of the countries i work in.... better say nothing i think, my diplomacy is best left to ships (lack of it actually)
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I was having a quick chat with Mr X-Eng at Donnington whilst admiring his wares (trying to persued someone I needed one more like) and we happened to get onto the subject under discussion at the top of the thread.
Now I know from a previous discussion on MC that the profit margin for, shall we call it the 'original' was very low, highly commendable and well done that guy. So I have to wonder where the economic reason for the, shall we say 'latest version' is. Unless they sell thousands then the manufacturer of the calliper is unlikely to give any serious discounts. I think in this instance it's more about adding a prodcut to the line-up than doing it for the money.
Now if someone reproduces a good design and makes it cheaper, that's simple economics (the diff-guard being a case in point) but as with the arguament against video piracy, the copies do not help repay the cost of development For that reason I think intelectual property needs to be better protected. In this instance it is perhaps for us to look to our own concience.
As for all the other stuff, well I don't get in the bar too often at the Moment, I spend a lot of time in the tech. section and enjoy the time I spend there. Let's not fall out over somehting we seem to agree on :wink: