Mud-club
Chat & Social => The Bar - General Chat => Topic started by: Porny on April 18, 2006, 11:11:45
-
And I must say I'm very impressed!!!!
Standard strings (so no suspension lift!!)
This is the 'weekender' kits so comes with:
New procomp dampers (all 4)
New front damper mounts (external, rather than inside of the spring)
New rear damper mounts
HD front Turrets
Extended brake lines
Extended bump stops
And then to add to this (the next stage up :D )
QT Front radius arms (-3 Deg in this case)
QT Rear Trailing arms
Full Red Polybush Kit
And a few other bits and pieces!!!
Being standard height (and thus standard rate springs) my 90 still handles very well (even better with the polybush set and uprated dampers) and still tows without any problems!!!
The -3 Deg front arms are usually only fitted to correct a 2" suspension lift, but on standard height they make quite a difference to the suspension and the way it self centres!!
This kit has also changed my mine about the 'do dislocation cones work/is there any point' debate. IMHO with the correct kit ..... YES they do work, and make a difference!!!
There is no way that a Land Rover on completely standard suspension would have got up the ramps!!! Or up the bank shown in the photo's without at least one locking diff.
Ian
-
And a few more.... just testing pics!! :wink: (supension not at max)
The first pic shows max articulation with completely standard suspension as a comparison.
-
:D like it like it like it got any pics off the front end intrested in doin same to disco but with a 3 link set up and your dead right there is no debate wheels on ground =traction and control :Das you can see still not taken up high enough as the spring has not dislocated yet i cant get high enough safley in garden but still got loads travel left :D
-
how much was the shocks,mounts & cones?
-
Colin.....
You need a proper ramp!! :wink: ..
Mike - best bet would be to either email/pm Andy - landy_andy on here or have a look at www.paidia4x4.com (run by Mud_Club members!!)...
Ian
-
Colin.... just for you....
Front suspension photo.
It's a different set-up to the three link front end though... the weekender kit uses a different damper mount as it's designed to be 'bolt-on' - so no mods. The three link kit needs the inner arch trimmed.
Ian
-
Looks nice n flexy, bet yr neighbours think yr a bit nuts now tho with the big ramp out on the green :lol:
looks tidytho, nice front mounts.
Get that 3 link in the front now.lol :wink:
-
:Di have got a ramp to use just wont fit in me garden lol ..like that front set up what length shockers you using
-
:D Looks Good
-
Looking good ian :wink:
Why did you stick with the standard springs?
-
:Di have got a ramp to use just wont fit in me garden lol ..like that front set up what length shockers you using
Not sure what length front shocks, came as part of the weekender kit.... which was designed by Andy at www.whitepeakengineering.com
Looks Good
Cheers Tim
Looking good ian
Why did you stick with the standard springs?
Because I'm not a great fan of lifted suspension... unless for a specific reason.
In my case I'm only running standard size tyres, and I'm more than happy with standard Land Rover spring lengths and rates (Land Rover spend a lot more than any aftermarket company developing springs!!)... and with the kit fitted I've got more than enough suspension travel.
Higher suspension would raise my CoG, increase the working angles of my prop shafts and in all honesty would not allow me to gain that much in regards to ramp break over angle (would be slightly different if a 110 or Disco) or approach and departure angles.
If I wanted to, with the weekender kit, it would be easy to change to lifted spring set up as I already have extended brake lines - and I took the option of a set of caster corrected radius amrs, and 'bent' rear trailing arms. It is something I might try in the future, but at the moment I'm more than happy!!
The only thing I loose out on is distance between the bump stop and the axle (at the front).... the kit uses longer bump stops (as the closed length of the damper is longer than a standard damper)... but we are only taking about 15mm less, and I don't see this as being a problem... a set of longer springs would put things back to normal... but at the moment it works ok as it is.
Ian
-
that looks great, and makes a lot of sense, enjoy the articulation 8)
-
nice one mate i wana one
-
:D like it like it like it got any pics off the front end intrested in doin same to disco but with a 3 link set up and your dead right there is no debate wheels on ground =traction and control :Das you can see still not taken up high enough as the spring has not dislocated yet i cant get high enough safley in garden but still got loads travel left :D
Hi,
If your interested in 3Link then come and talk to me. There is a intersting thread here : http://landroversonly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7627 where my kit was being 'discussed'.
Ian..... your cheque's in the post mate :wink:
Cheers,
-
i like the look of that kit and from what have seen its reasonably priced as well, its something i,ve been thinking about fitting to my disco if i ever get the steering sorted out and get it back thru the mot :lol:
-
That looks great Porny 8)
-
pory got the link to the suspension set package ??
looks sweet 8)
-
looks well smart Ian
a well sorted package
:D
-
How tall is your ramp? this is the biggest thing I could find to drive onto round here.
-
Looking good, have you lowered the bump stops? If they are the 12inch procomps you may fin they top out unless you lower it quite a bit ..especially as you havent lifted it.
Get yourself in the rock crawl at Frickley....who needs ramps when mother nature is so kind.
-
people who crawl rocks are nutters,
to insane for me. :lol: :lol:
-
porny got the link to the suspension set package ??
looks sweet 8)
Have a look at www.paidia4x4.com or pm andy-landy on here or via www.whitepeakengineering.com
How tall is your ramp? this is the biggest thing I could find to drive onto round here.
Not my ramps, but there are about 24" with the wood underneath.
Looking good, have you lowered the bump stops? If they are the 12inch procomps you may fin they top out unless you lower it quite a bit ..especially as you havent lifted it.
Not sure what length Procomps they are.... but:
At the moment, the rears bottom out at the same time.... the axle is pressed up onto the bump stop just before/at the same point as the damper is completely compressed (i.e. perfectly matched).
The front though, currently bottoms out on the dampers before the bump stops.... this will change once I've fitted the extended versions.
I'm not sure what you mean by especially as you havent lifted it.
The force to get a spring 'fully' compressed is very large, and as such you would need to have a large impact to bottom the shock out to the extent that the axle is on the bump stop. Not the sort of thing you'd see at low speed off roading (different if high speed CCV type use)
Without the spring in place, as mentioned, the axle hits the bump stop at the time that the damper is fully compressed - as it is designed to do.
(the front will be the same once I've fitted the extended bump stops)
But even in the photographs, with the wheel pushed up inside of the arch... the damper is not fully compressed, and still has an inch and a bit of travel left, but you are fighting against the loading/compressed length of the spring.
And a spring that is longer or of a higher loading (which is what people fit when they fit +2" springs) would only make matters worse.
The only way around this would be to run softer springs, shorter springs and/or ones with less coils... which could possibly cause more problems than they'd solve.
-
When in use bumpstops will compress, so the axle should hit the bumpstop before the damper is fully compressed or most of the force of the impact will end up on the damper, not good.
-
Depends how soft the bumps stops are, and how far they compress under load.
The ones fitted are uprated, and as such deflect less than standard for a given load.... and thus will not allow a damper to compress any further than it's initial bump stop.
As already mentioned though....
The force to get a spring 'fully' compressed is very large, and as such you would need to have a large impact to bottom the damper and the spring out to the extent that the axle is on the bump stop. Not the sort of thing you'd see at low speed off roading which this kit is designed for!! (different if high speed CCV type use).
The other way would be to overload the vehicle or to drive like an idiot.
Under current usage, I don't believe the current set up would cause any problems. However, Andy mentioned he's looking at the design of the rear mount, so may adjust it slightly to ensure there is slightly more of a 'fail safe' within the design.
Ian
-
Sorry mate i wasnt having a pop, dont know where you get you massive force theory from. My axle hits the bump stops pretty regularily when doing large axle twisters...as for force i think that is supplied by my 2 tonne disco.
The lifted bit refers to the fact that a 12 inch travel procomp is longer than a 10 inch and so on(strange that) . The damper rod has to go somewhere.
So , follow my logic, if you have a 12inch shock as per the normal g2f kit then there is less room for it if you havent lifted your suspension...is that not logical?? Therefore if you dont lift the car but fit the same length shocks as they normally supply for lifted cars you may run into the top of the shock b4 it hits the bump stop.
If this wasnt a problem why would they fit bump stops to everything??? It is there to protect the shock / spring from becoming damaged.
-
In my case that doesn't happen....
With standard suspension (well standard springs), even fully twisted my axle does not touch the bump stop. Whether this is due to standard spring compression weights/rates, or the fact my 90 is quite a bit lighter than your Disco, I don't know.
Either way it doesn't actually matter as 'if' the spring was fully compressed then the axle would hit the bump stops and prevent the damper from being completely bottomed out... as tested without the spring in place.
Regardless of whether I've lifted the suspension or not, spring length doesn't play a part as long as the bump stop length is matched to the closed length of the damper.... which it is.
Without lifted springs, due to the lower bump mount (at the front), I will have less compression of the suspension, but the same amount of droop.
Shock length is also adjusted by the mounting postion, and the Whitepeak Engineering (not G2F any more) uses different mounts to standard, and not just lowers them as per other kits. Again this dictates bump stop/damper closed position
Ian
-
Ian, im fully aware of where the mounts are and the fact that they are higher not lower. The kits that lower the mount do not use as long as shock.
If your bump stop is so well set up why doesnt it stop the axle at full travel. Surely it would if it was perfectly matched as you say??
If it doesnt then is your spring not in danger of becoming coil bound?
The set up look well thought out and its your choice to lift or not im neutral either way.I was just pointing out that as shocks arent free and everyone else on the planet uses bump stops to limit upward travel it seems strange you have decided everyone else is wrong.Paddocks,John Craddock G2f , scorpion, safari gard all supply lowered bump stops .... there must be a reason
-
Hi Ian
Well done on the mods, Andy's kit does look good and it would be interesting to see how the relocated shock mounts compare to a 'normal' lowered shock mount arrangement. We'll have to try and meet up to compare. I haven't done anything with f&r radius arms on mine yet so it would be good to compare pre and post this mod on mine to see what difference it makes.
As for lift I agree with not lifting more than you need to, although on mine with 255/85's and a 1.5" lift I need to slightly trim the arches on full articulation.
I agree with Bulli that on any play day site your bump stops are going to be used quite often and it seems like we all know why these have to be set at the right height.
Cheers
Steve :)
-
looking really good porny, 8) they dont do that kit to fit the disco do they, i have looked and can only see that it fits defender :?
-
Porny, summat for ya to think about.
If you take the springs out, then sit the chassis/axle on the bump stops, and the shocks just top out then the first time you take a heavy hit and the bump stops compress, then youll damage something(shox/mounts)
But, if you look at the setup, theshock(I think) is mounted outboard on the landy axle, further out from the bump stop. This means that if you flex one side fully, the shock will top out long before the bump stop even meets.
Take the springs out and cycle the suspension each side and check, saves repairs later.
-
heres mine with its surpension kit
(http://members.mud-club.com/galleryimages/a5fd6f95a42a117026aae7f4e9ed0600.JPG)
(http://members.mud-club.com/galleryimages/95f9807deb397d5d6caead15a7ff8bd0.JPG)
-
OK....
-
I cant beleive how many people with this mega travel suspension seem to get stuck on the top of something.....
My motor has relativley standard suspension and I can drive right over such things!
so there :D
-
:lol: nice one!
It doesnt matter how much travel you have when you are upto your nuts in mud!!
-
Paddocks,John Craddock, G2f , scorpion
Wonder how much testing they do???? :wink:
Interestingly, if you have a look at Devon 4x4’s 90, it runs standard length bump stops in all the pictures…..
An update… :D
Both Andy and myself have read all the comments/replies/suggestions/observations with interest and today have spent an enjoyable afternoon/evening (night! :shock: ) taking various measurements, making calculations, adjustments and mock-ups… and drinking coffee and eating a Chinese!! :D :wink:
The front suspension set up is fine as is, however, the rear:
With the standard size bump stops, when the axle is jacked all the way up then it touches both bump stops just before it reaches the bump stop on the Dampers.
In a cross-axle situation however…. With one side of the axle jacked up, and the other side hanging low - as suggested the axle does not touch the bump stop.
In low speed applications this ‘should’ not be too much of an issue, but with a harder landing it could cause damage to the damper… so…
Andy has actually designed a new mount that is suitable for all coil sprung applications (thus will fit Defender, Discovery and Classic Range Rover), so we fitted a set of these and took various measurements.
From these ‘experiments’….
There will now be extended rear bumps stops (or spacers) supplied with the weekender kits (fronts are already included), though their length will be dictated by the vehicle set up (standard springs or longer – e.g. +2â€Â) and will be dependant on which kit is chosen.
Some interesting things we found:
(Based on previous measurements as we didn’t have a suitability equipped Land Rover to re-measure)
With +2†springs and dampers (unless we can be proved wrong) there is no way that when cross axled the axle will touch a standard length bump stop.
With +2†springs and dampers and lowered damper mounts again the axle will not touch a standard bump stop, and even ‘some’ extended bump stops will prove too short…
So most people running round with said kits could find themselves ‘bending’ their dampers quite easily!!
Steve and Bulli, what length of bump stops are you running???
Any chance of a few pics of the axle cross axled, ideally with and without the spring in place if possible??? Both of you AFAIK are running lowered mounts, which is something we didn’t have to hand.
We'll have to try and meet up to compare. I haven't done anything with f&r radius arms on mine yet so it would be good to compare pre and post this mod on mine to see what difference it makes.
Sounds like a plan. :D
Ian
-
As a sneak preview....
The 'working prototype' of the new damper mount.... (needs a slight adjustment to finish it off)
After working on my brakes yesterday, have also picked up a 'jack-strap' off Andy. Means I can jack my 90 off the chassis without needing a crane!!!
Will post pictures when I get chance.
Ian
-
Here are some of mine
Standard Suspension :oops:
(http://members.mud-club.com/galleryimages/968ce997eb08de7dc8d6e9678b4023ef.JPG)
(http://members.mud-club.com/galleryimages/0206bd34982453421406e4d31fca5475.JPG)
(http://members.mud-club.com/galleryimages/cecc429e787a3136ec9c0b3c8a6e27e6.JPG)
-
Porny,
looks like you guys have been busy,Looks like some good work and a lot of thinking have gone into it.You arent a million miles away from me so if you are planning a brainstorm i have a few interesting ideas up my sleeve...
I have 12 inch travel mx6 shocks on the rear with higher mounts not lowered.The reason is they have variable damping as you move the shock mounts forward they have greater leverage against the shock so standard procomps dont damp enough for my liking.
The bump stops are extended and are about to be lowered again as i have some longer springs on order. I will get you a few piccies.
-
is it MX6's or mx6 with the remote reservoir your running bulli?
-
The older version without the remote...same shock though so im told...the new ones look real nice though
-
Interestingly, if you have a look at Devon 4x4’s 90, it runs standard length bump stops in all the pictures…..
Erm.. don't bring us into this !
You will also notice that our trucks only run about 9-10 inches of travel at each wheel.... and still win events.
Granted... we don't "look cool" on an RTI ramp though :roll:
-
back to the look good on an RTI or be good where it counts offroad
-
Hi matey,
Things are going well with the new adjusted mounts, have them drawn up and just need to get a set lasered out to recheck for clearence issues. What I'm working to produce is a mount that will fit 90/110, RaRo's and Disco 1's without causing interference to bodywork. 90's are easy, it's the low rear tub line on Disco's that causes the issues and if you look at the picture above Porny posted you'll see the 25mm box section I was using as a gauge. We also need to consider the fuel assy on TD5's as it's bolted to the side of the crossmember and again is not something that's easily moved due to the number of fuel pipes involved. Finally, consideration must also be given to the arc that the pin mount travels over, as we don't want to over stress the pin or end up with an uneven angular movement from fully compressed / extended. Ideally the damper should sit neutural at normal road ride height or within an acceptable range for lifted vehicles.
So, to get a mount that fits all is quite an interesting and some what annoying PITA. But, I think the latest version will be OK and give the results I want. That being a mount that's a universal fit and provides good increased levels of articulation from 0" lift - 2" lift without major detremental effects to general handling.
As you say, tipping the dampers too far forwards reduces the effective damping due to mechanical advantage, this is why we haven't gone OTT with these mounts. If you want that, my 'Hi-Flex' rear system will stroke the 'A' frame ball joint out with room to spare. That's why I'm also working on rose jointed trailing arms & 'A' frame as well. The 3Link front system has also been tweeked to maximise ground clearence as there was a little more available in the middle and under the radius arm mounts. For those kits I'll be using Gaz dampers to my own spec as there rebuildable and offer adjustment on bump setting too.
Cheers,
-
sound like its coming together.
Tim , depends what you want at the end of the day. At this point in time im enjoying playing around to get max travel, if i wanted (or felt capable) to compete then i would be concentrating on a very pricey modified winch....as that along with simexes seems to be pretty much what is required to win.
Dont get me wrong the forethought and understanding of the guys who win is really the key. Planning and working as a team ,as well as good decision making ... and above all reliability win series.