Mud-club
Chat & Social => The Bar - General Chat => Topic started by: blackbob on July 01, 2007, 01:37:51
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should the bombers be tried for treason and hung
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Personally it's a big YES on this one for me-i've always said that if it can be proven without doubt they are guilty then why should we pay to keep them behind bars. I believe one them was seen getting out the vehicle and was on fire by the police. I don't think theres much doubt about it :?:
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Although I have no real faith in the legal side of our country, I do agree that why should we pay to keep them??
On top of that, all it needs is our government to reach an agreement with the bombers home country and we'll start to let them out and let them take up political positions in their own coutry :evil:
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I am going to called a racist for this but:
If you do not like England or Britain
If you do not like Christianity as a basis of our laws
If you do not believe in Western democracy
If you do not believe in invidividual freedom and the right to free speech
If you do not believe in the equality of women
If you do not believe in our way of life, culture and ways
THEN <edit> (http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=42831) OFF SOMEWHERE ELSE
Its quite simple and its all that needs to be asked at the docks and airports.
The first time these so-called people demonstrate against our country, burn the flag, block our roads and prevent normal citzens from going abouttheir daily business as they frequently do in London, then they should be summarily deported instantly.
Why the state makes it so complicated I do not know. Terrorist cannot be a threat if they aren't here.
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I'm suprised they got away without being slotted by the police at the airport!
Sad state of the affairs.
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Well, the troubles here are sadly rather more complex, it has been stated that a lot of the potential suspects, as well as those that have decided to make themselves into martyrs (I use the term loosely, since I'm still not entirely convinced in martyrdom as a concept) are second or third generation british people who view their predicament as being the result of their chosen religion and not any other factor..
perhaps in some ways they are correct, perhaps in others, they're not, either way I'm not convinced killing yourself is a good solution, and I can't even envision a situation where I'd be convinced that killing other people is a solution to them.
As for attacking an airport, while ever you can get near the front doors and are allowed to be flammable I'm not sure what can be done .. :(
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22KB86 what you said is not racist but also not entirely correct.......
It is perfectly reasonable to live in this country and not believe in christianity, that does not make someone a terrorist.....
What makes terrorists are extreme power hungry people that use religion as a medium of spreading their own vile version of hatrid. We have this in almost every religion, if we look back in history at christianity they did it as well!!!! What were the crusades all about if not to spread religion? Then you take in witch hunts, the Inquisition, the slave trade...... need I go on?
The difference here, is in a so called civil society (I use the phrase loosely because of the recent stabbings and "happy Slapping" crap thats been going on) we theoreticly have the mechanisms to stop a lot of the terrorism coming through our borders, but we do not use it. We are an island state which is a soft touch to any hardluck story, we should be looking after our own citizens 1st, and in that I include the many immigrants who came to our country through the 40s, 50s and 60s to make a better life for themselves and contributed to our society in a positive way.
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Isn't there a little bit of contradiction in saying people should be deported if they don't believe in freedom of opinion and the right of freedom of speech, and then saying they should also be deported if they don't agree with Western democracy, Christianity, etc?
I'm an atheist, and I think some Western democracies are corrupt shams. Does that mean I get deported? If so, where's my freedom of speech?
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If you do not believe in the equality of women.
Hear, hear 8) For too long us men have been suppressed :lol: :lol:
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I believe that if they get caught they should be tried and prosecuted by this country but the punishment should be what they would get in there own country i.e if you steel in some Arab countries they still chop off one of your hands. I don't know what there punishment would be for treason but im sure it would not be as pleasant as our punishment system. And a new topic i think all pedophiles should be forced to take the new medication being "offered" and have there genitalia removed or just take the to a public place and have them stoned or hung or give me ten mins with a pair of pliers and a rusty hacksaw blade, being the farther of four children it is frightening to think they can live on your street and roam freely near schools etc. Also now a days ive noticed on programs such as street wars road wars and other cctv programs and witnessed first hand that when people fight 9 times out of ten more than two people have to get involved even if there not part of the dispute, and if one of the fighters gets knocked to the floor they get kicked and stamped on what ever happened to the good old fashioned punch up? I just don't know what the world is coming to nothing is like it used to be you cant go out without locking your house and your garden, and going out for a drink there is always got to be someone fighting by the end of the night. And you cant seem to fully trust anyone these days, Im just sorry that my children will have to grow up in this world as it is now and not have the chance to see how it was when i was growing up. :(
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I’ve done a fair bit of travelling around the Middle East (Jordan, Syria, Libya, Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt), and its always been a case of what ever country your in, you abide by their rules and respect there beliefs and customs.
I meet a lot of people over there and they couldn’t do enough for you, to make you feel welcome, and would even invite you into their home.
As soon as terrorism is mentioned, people instantly think of the Middle East. What this country must not do, is assume that everybody from the Middle East is a potential bomber. Otherwise it all turns into a medieval witch hunt.
It’s a very delicate situation, but without having all the facts, its hard to make any form of conclusion. :-k :-k :-k :-k
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I was not insinuating that it was someone from the middle east just merely pointing out the differences in punishments amputation of limbs in some countries to a slap on the wrist over here
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I’ve done a fair bit of travelling around the Middle East (Jordan, Syria, Libya, Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt), and its always been a case of what ever country your in, you abide by their rules and respect there beliefs and customs.
Up to a point - but westerners will still eat during the daytime during Ramadan, contrary to local beliefs, and in touristy places like Egypt, western women in particular will dress very provocatively compared to local custom. So I think it's wrong to think that visitors to Middle Eastern countries always respect local rules and customs. Sometimes I've felt very uncomfortable, on behalf of my local hosts, about the behaviour of fellow westerners in other countries.
I meet a lot of people over there and they couldn’t do enough for you, to make you feel welcome, and would even invite you into their home.
Agreed; and I have a theory about that. Some of the friendliest places I've visited are those who have dictatorial governments; take Syria and Iran, for example. I think that people from a country which doesn't have democracy tend not to link the actions of a country to those of its people, because they're used to having no influence over their OWN governments. So a Syrian doesn't hold an Englishman responsible for attacking Iraq, any more than they'd expect to be held responsible for their own unelected government's actions in Lebanon.
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Very good point, totally agree!!
When I went I did try to honour Ramadan. Didn’t eat in front of the guide, but did have a crafty snack when nobody was looking!
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"When in Rome..."
If you are visiting a country (e.g. on holiday) it is one thing, but if you are making it your home you should do your best to integrate. In any case you should obey the local laws.
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maybe the bloke was just so fed up with his hire jeep he set fire to it when he got back to the airport?
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Being a Jeep it might have caught fire all on it's own :lol:
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Dont know if its just me, but these recent attempts dont seem very well thought out, rather amateurish compared to the ones last year
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Two things:
One, sorry about swearing I forgot the 'family' nature of the forum.
Two, I perhaps didn't make myself clear regarding Christianity. What I meant was that this country, like it or not, is based on Christianity as we know it today - the state, the laws, the customs, etc.
And what I meant by my overall badly worded reply was that people seem to leave the country of their birth and choose to come here when they dislike everything about our culture, our religion, our way of life and our country and then seem determined to destroy it from within and re-create the hell holes they themselves fled. All I am saying is, why come here at all and if you dont like it here then dont blow it up, just leave. The doors are always open and you can go as easily as you came.....
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Dont know if its just me, but these recent attempts dont seem very well thought out, rather amateurish compared to the ones last year
Let's hope it stays that way and they only harm themselves :evil:
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Being a Jeep it might have caught fire all on it's own :lol:
wouldnt suprise me
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I am going to called a racist for this but:
If you do not like England or Britain
If you do not like Christianity as a basis of our laws
If you do not believe in Western democracy
If you do not believe in invidividual freedom and the right to free speech
If you do not believe in the equality of women
If you do not believe in our way of life, culture and ways
THEN <edit> (http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=42831) OFF SOMEWHERE ELSE
Its quite simple and its all that needs to be asked at the docks and airports.
The first time these so-called people demonstrate against our country, burn the flag, block our roads and prevent normal citzens from going abouttheir daily business as they frequently do in London, then they should be summarily deported instantly.
Why the state makes it so complicated I do not know. Terrorist cannot be a threat if they aren't here.
I agree with you
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22kb86 wrote
people seem to leave the country of their birth and choose to come here when they dislike everything about our culture, our religion, our way of life and our country and then seem determined to destroy it from within and re-create the hell holes they themselves fled
Sorry I think you are wrong . [-X
They don't disslike everything [-X
they like the free handouts the free houses the free education the free healthcare and the freedom to let us pay for it all :evil:
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:lol:
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I belive that If anyone is caught having anything to do with terrorism, they should be deported forthwith, that includes imediate familiy as well, even if they are british citizens.
I realise that it is hard on the families but that kind of action will drive the message home that we are not prepared to accept that kind of behaviour from anyone no matter what race or religion.
I'm sorry but that's the way I feel, No stuff it i'm not sorry at all! why should I be.
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22KB86 fully agreed.
What happened wneh dangerous dogs were found to be attacking kids?
They were removed from society..........
We need to be a lot bolder and braver to remove the current threat to society if we are to make it work.
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surely we can learn from what has happened in northern iresland. it was not that long ago that everyone with an irish accent was a terrorist, now it is the arabs.
if we believe in western democracy (the concept of majority rule) then surely we are an islamic state? lets us face it, our so-called democracy is no superior to anyone else's system for choosing their leaders.
what is needed is to remove the emotion and the hatred from the equation. this is something that many people are working hard towards on all sides of the racial/political/faith divide.
before i get stick - i am not saying the terrorist should not be punished, i just think that the punishment is not the solution to our problems. the beauty of our country is that it promotes freedom of speech and debate - neither of which have ever killed anyone.
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Terrorism = Treason, treason still carries the death penalty, they want to be martyrs; dying for their cause, rewarded with virgins etc vis a vis execute them and we will all be happy!! :D
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Dirty Gertie odes have a point. And treason is the only thing that still carries the death penalty.
I cant say what I want to though else I'll get lumped in with the likes of them and I'm sure someone from GCHQ would pick it up.
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Actually, the penalty of death for treason and piracy was repealed by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/98037--e.htm#36)
Whether that was a good thing or not is a matter of opinion.
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Actually, the penalty of death for treason and piracy was repealed by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/98037--e.htm#36)
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Damn!! I'm sure it could be brought back by popular demand (a bit like 'Take That' and the 'Spice Girls'!! :wink: )
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Two of those linked with the attempted bombings are doctors. Do doctors not have to take a hypocratic oath that they will preserve life and stop pain and suffering?
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Two of those linked with the attempted bombings are doctors. Do doctors not have to take a hypocratic oath that they will preserve life and stop pain and suffering?
In the UK and US yes, I'm not sure about elsewhere.
Although 'Do No Harm' isnt in the original.
This is in the modern one though:
'Never to do deliberate harm to anyone for anyone else's interest.'
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surely we can learn from what has happened in northern iresland. it was not that long ago that everyone with an irish accent was a terrorist, now it is the arabs.
if we believe in western democracy (the concept of majority rule) then surely we are an islamic state? lets us face it, our so-called democracy is no superior to anyone else's system for choosing their leaders.
what is needed is to remove the emotion and the hatred from the equation. this is something that many people are working hard towards on all sides of the racial/political/faith divide.
before i get stick - i am not saying the terrorist should not be punished, i just think that the punishment is not the solution to our problems. the beauty of our country is that it promotes freedom of speech and debate - neither of which have ever killed anyone.
Sorry Pilgrim, but punishment is the solution. For too long this country has adopted a soflty-softly approach in everything from diplomatic relations to crime to terrorism and it does not work. The prison system is overflowing at the moment and this at a time when it is highly undesireable to send people there. Why? Because there are more and more criminals. Why? Because all through their lives they are allowed to totally dominate everyone by spouting their rights.
Now I think it is high time we had the other side of rights which is responsibility and consequnces for one's owns actions and that means punishment first before reabilitation.
And whilst I agree whole heartedly with your thoughts on reasoned debate, the problem is with the current threat from islamic and other religious fundamentalists is that ther is NO debating with them! They beleive their twisted versions of reality are right and we are wrong and that's it. No debate. No debate to the point of their own death in so-called fatwahs, suicide bombs and more.
And it is very hard to remove emotion and hatred when faced with the same.
And finally, I dont understand your comments on Western democracy being equated with an Islamic state? Western democracy allows religious and spiritual freedoms to all faiths despite being largely based in Christianity. Islamic states do not offer the same freedoms to their citizens, openly persecuting many for their religions. There are exceptions of course, but I still do not understand the similie??
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At the end of the day... these terrorists are attacking "OUR" innocent women children and men...., too cowardly to attack our government or armed forces.
I'm puzzled as to why they dont single out our politicians?
Talking of politicians.... noticed the majority of councilors are now asian/muslim in our big cities.
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what makes you laugh(or cry) is the amount of money spent on on hounding out smokers :shock: lets create some more jobs for the unemployable to go round and find the smokers, they are a threat to everyones way of life with their filthy habit :lol:
lets not have some more police instead though to catch criminals who will stop at nothing to incinerate themselves and others eh comrade brown :?
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I belive that If anyone is caught having anything to do with terrorism, they should be deported forthwith, that includes imediate familiy as well, even if they are british citizens.
I realise that it is hard on the families but that kind of action will drive the message home that we are not prepared to accept that kind of behaviour from anyone no matter what race or religion.
I'm sorry but that's the way I feel, No stuff it i'm not sorry at all! why should I be.
Agree totally.
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I see the Authorities have named one of the Glasgow Bombers....
Sinj Majeep
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I see the Authorities have named one of the Glasgow Bombers....
Sinj Majeep
Get your coat :lol: :lol:
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I belive that If anyone is caught having anything to do with terrorism, they should be deported forthwith, that includes imediate familiy as well, even if they are british citizens.
I realise that it is hard on the families but that kind of action will drive the message home that we are not prepared to accept that kind of behaviour from anyone no matter what race or religion.
I'm sorry but that's the way I feel, No stuff it i'm not sorry at all! why should I be.
what if its english people involved ? where you going to deport them to?
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Isn't there a little bit of contradiction in saying people should be deported if they don't believe in freedom of opinion and the right of freedom of speech, and then saying they should also be deported if they don't agree with Western democracy, Christianity, etc?
I'm an atheist, and I think some Western democracies are corrupt shams. Does that mean I get deported? If so, where's my freedom of speech?
My own views are somewhere between the two. I strongly believe that if you want to live in Britain, you should accept its values, laws, and culture. I choose to live here (I declined the opportunity to move to the US a few years ago). I don't agree with everything in this country. I don't agree with the corrput sham that our democracy has become. I don't feel that any religion - Christianity, Islam, or Scientology has any more relevant to modern life than, say, a re-enactment society or other historical observance. I choose to accept all of those things, largely because I can't find a better option that doesn't involve learning another language.
But you either accept the law, culture and values of the western world, or leave. You choose.
I also firmly hold the belief that if ANYONE thinks terrorism is a justifiable way to make their viewpoint known, it invalidates that viewpoint for themselves, and anyone else who holds it. If a religion leads to justification of terror, that religion is evil in nature -- just as any religion condoning mass child abuse is evil in nature.
Back to the question of the poll: there are two problems with hanging the low-life behind this. The first is getting trial for treason to actually stick. The bigger one is making a martyr of the evil murderers. What you actually need to do is to prohibit press coverage of terrorist trials. The only thing reported at the end is "the perpetrator was found guilty and sentenced." Don't mention who it was. Don't give their PR agents a chance to glorify their death.
My own solution is to treat terrorists as foreign soldiers mounting an act of war, and to send the army after them.
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Two of those linked with the attempted bombings are doctors. Do doctors not have to take a hypocratic oath that they will preserve life and stop pain and suffering?
I think you'll find that when the extremists are alledgedly being influenced by a higher being, entity, what ever you want to call it, the hypocratic oath is not that high up on their priority list.
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I belive that If anyone is caught having anything to do with terrorism, they should be deported forthwith, that includes imediate familiy as well, even if they are british citizens.
I realise that it is hard on the families but that kind of action will drive the message home that we are not prepared to accept that kind of behaviour from anyone no matter what race or religion.
I'm sorry but that's the way I feel, No stuff it i'm not sorry at all! why should I be.
what if its english people involved ? where you going to deport them to?
Downtown Bagdad, boot them out of an APC wearing a Union jack T-Shirt one saturday morning.
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Do you know what makes me really proud to be British and to sit here typing this?
I CAN SIT HERE TYPING THIS.
When i was at school/college I met people from all nations and religions.
The only group that seemed to cause problems were "The Asians" as we called them. I have no idea what country they were from I can guess the religion.
Another thing I can now do without being called a racist is fly the flag of St George/Union Flag on my Land Rover. That would have been frowned upon 5 + years ago.
I never understood why Scotland flew there's, wales flew theirs.
I was at a Scout camp a long time ago and I dug out the Union Flag and as we had a French National with us I got his out too. He was ecstatic he wrapped himself up in it and was generally well pleased. Our Scouts couldn't have given too hoots about the union flag.
A couple of years ago my then new step daughter found the St Georges flag and did exactly the same as the french guy. That is good, we are once again proud of our selves.
As for the vote hang em - PUBLICLY
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see they timed there attacks when the airport was full of kids as it was the first day of summer holidays
how would the muslims like it if we blew up there kids or religious centers think there could be riots in the streets soon
i also think that they should bring our armed forces home to help police the streets