Mud-club
Chat & Social => The Bar - General Chat => Topic started by: muddyjames on October 09, 2007, 15:57:55
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I am trying to find ways to be greener and money saving and I have had this wacky idea which I think may work.
How difficult would it be to wire in another wall thermostat in parallel to my existing one?
Reasons for this.
I spent 99% of my time at home in my bedroom and it is only little me who lives here. SO, If I were to wire in another stat I would only need to heat up my bed room (which is directly above the exisiting stat) At the moment I am heating the whole house up as the stat is downstairs by the kitchen, lounge and hall way. This seems mad to me that I am heating the whole house up. I could turn the radiators off but then the downstairs would never warm up and the boiler will be on for as long as it is on, on the timer. If I have 2 stats then I can have my bedroom heat up and kick the boiler off and existing stat on low just to keep the chill off downstairs as not to freeze up. I can turn all the rads off except my bedroom and 1 small rad in hall way downstairs.
When guests come round I can then use exisitng stat to heat whole house up and turn a couple more rads on around the house to warm the place up.
the heating was installed after the house was built in 1995 so there is some cable casing runing up the wall and into the ceiling / my bedroom floor. So hopefully a couple of floor boards up and I will find the wires for the stat.
I thought about moving the stat into my room but then when friends come round I have to run up and down the stairs to tweek it on or off. This is what I am doing now when my bedroom becomes warm enough.
Is this a barmy idea or one that is do-able? 2nd question is, is it a VERY simple diy electrical thing or would I need a boff into do it?
My money situation is near brasik / buy what I need, so sooner I get this done the better and on the cheap the better and sooner I save money the better!! :lol:
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see i have this amazing theory... SOD heating... put another layer of clothes on, and light one of the wood burners.
R
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I do do that too. I can only get so many layers on though before I cant touch the keyboard to type replies on MC!!! As for wood burners :? I have no chimney!!!
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get one built. or fabricate a pipe outta one of the walls or something...
gloves? lol
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As for wood burners :? I have no chimney!!!
You don't need one if you have a position for a stove by an outside wall. You just run a flue through the wall and up the side of the house. However, it ain't cheap!
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Is my idea of another thermostat cheaper than installing a woodburner in my bedroom?
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Ours has 2 stats, one in the house, 1 in the garage. The one in the garage is to get the boiler to run if the external temp is too low - thus preventing icing up....
So I assume you could do the same ... but I'm no electrician!
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not in the long run, cos you will be paying for heating...
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Thermostatic radiator values are they best way, then you can easily control each room. In the rooms I don't use I have the temp right down.
Two thermostats would in theory work, but you would need to wire them in series not parallel so that as soon as one goes off, the whole circuit is cut. if you put them in parallel then both rooms would need to be up to temperature - however this isnt gospel as I'm no electrician either....
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Is my idea of another thermostat cheaper than installing a woodburner in my bedroom?
The wood burner is the relatively cheap bit. It's the flue pipe that adds up. My wife sells these things (got about 2000 stoves in stock at present!), so sadly, I know all about them :roll:
Expect to pay around £200 for a small stove. Depending on the lengths of vitreous and twin wall flue, you could easily spend £400 extra on pipework.
You need to have the stove at least 18" from any combustable material (doors, studwork walls, etc) and 6" from any other wall IIRC. The smallest of stoves kick out loads of heat though. We have an 11Kw one and it heats the whole 3 bedroom house without any problem at all. We have been known to have to open the windows because it gets too hot!
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surely in series if i have my room stat after the original. say O = original and new is N
O at 15C and N is at 20c. N will never be engadged as O will always be off.
if O is at 20 and N is at 20 then I am back to how I am now.
Have I got this right?
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Thermostatic radiator values are they best way, then you can easily control each room. In the rooms I don't use I have the temp right down.
Two thermostats would in theory work, but you would need to wire them in series not parallel so that as soon as one goes off, the whole circuit is cut. if you put them in parallel then both rooms would need to be up to temperature - however this isnt gospel as I'm no electrician either....
I'd agree with the above - TRV's (thermostatic rad valves) are by far the best way to go, you can set each rad to a different setting (we have the spare bedroom one turned down way low), and we don't have a main thermostat.
The 2 wall-mounted stats needs a bit of thinking........and my brain aint working too well right now. Can you not just turn the rads down low in the rooms you don't currrently use, then turn them up when peeps come visiting ?
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I take it they are water radiators? If so, why don't you fit radiator thermostats? The ones that fit in the inlet water pipe.
Edit.....
Just been beaten to it!!
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You need to have the stove at least 18" from any combustable material (doors, studwork walls, etc) and 6" from any other wall IIRC. The smallest of stoves kick out loads of heat though. We have an 11Kw one and it heats the whole 3 bedroom house without any problem at all. We have been known to have to open the windows because it gets too hot!
Erm well there is my first problem!! I only have a diddy house and no spare wall space that big.
I think I will stick to looking into central heating ideas!
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You need to have the stove at least 18" from any combustable material (doors, studwork walls, etc) and 6" from any other wall IIRC. The smallest of stoves kick out loads of heat though. We have an 11Kw one and it heats the whole 3 bedroom house without any problem at all. We have been known to have to open the windows because it gets too hot!
Erm well there is my first problem!! I only have a diddy house and no spare wall space that big.
I think I will stick to looking into central heating ideas!
Damn! No sale! :lol:
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I take it they are water radiators? If so, why don't you fit radiator thermostats? The ones that fit in the inlet water pipe.
Edit.....
Just been beaten to it!!
They are water rads. Surely though if I fit stats on the rads then the boiler will still be on as none of the down stairs rads will make the stat turn off as all the rad stats will be turned to 10c
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They are water rads. Surely though if I fit stats on the rads then the boiler will still be on as none of the down stairs rads will make the stat turn off as all the rad stats will be turned to 10c
I see what you are saying. I don't know how the boiler works in these systems! We only have rad thermostats and the oil fired boiler kicks in and out as needed. No doubt someone will be able to explain.
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I am sure there must be a plumber somewhere amongst the midths of MC!!!
But in my head it seems to all work!
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They are water rads. Surely though if I fit stats on the rads then the boiler will still be on as none of the down stairs rads will make the stat turn off as all the rad stats will be turned to 10c
The boiler should not be running all the time - if you have a pumped system, the pump will circulate water around the whole system (including hot water tank if you have one), the boiler will be set to fire up when the water being pumped through it drops in temperature. Our boiler has a control on the front panel - a bit like a volume knob, we have it set mid-way - well, the plumber that fitted (and services) it set it there when he set the system up.
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So I guess if you turn the boiler down it would be on more often to maintain temperature? But if your radiators are also turned down, they wouldn't release as much of the heat that the boiler puts into the water. So the boiler kicks in less. Is that right?
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I have a combi boiler. When I turn the hot tap on the boler fires up to give me hot water (no hot water tank) and as far as I can work out the boiler only turns off when the house is up to temp, hence why i say it is on all the time as downstairs never gets to temp due to the rads would be off in a dream world. silly heating whole house for me in my bedroom!
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I have a combi boiler. When I turn the hot tap on the boler fires up to give me hot water (no hot water tank) and as far as I can work out the boiler only turns off when the house is up to temp, hence why i say it is on all the time as downstairs never gets to temp due to the rads would be off in a dream world. silly heating whole house for me in my bedroom!
Oh :oops: , I see. We have a conventional boiler, I know jack about combi's.....other than my sis-in-law has one, and me and the father-in-law argued for hours over several beers about how best to set it up, in the end she got a plumber in :oops:
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So I guess if you turn the boiler down it would be on more often to maintain temperature? But if your radiators are also turned down, they wouldn't release as much of the heat that the boiler puts into the water. So the boiler kicks in less. Is that right?
there is a knob I can turn and to be honest it seems to do square root of nothing! I think it is just a water temp thing?
I dont 100% understand ur question to be honest mate.
If I turn down rads then little to no heat comes out so downstairs is always cold so boiler on all the time. turn rads up and still on all the time as stat is right by my stairwell so all the heat whizzes upstairs and my hall never gets warm so boiler still stays on :twisted:
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Sorry, it wasn't aimed at you! I think it only applies to 'proper' boilers if you excuse the term!
I suspect yours needs an electric thermostat. But I'm nowhere near qualified to say for sure!
Of course, you shouldn't do any of this yourself. Current rules mean you should have a qualified (certified?!) person carry out the work. Damn stupid if you ask me. There are plenty of people more than capable of carrying out perfectly safe work on their own houses.
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Do you not need a Corgi person for just fiddling around in the boiler itself? Surely a few wires under me floor boards doesnt need a goo roo to do?
I also want a towel rail rad put in, in my bathroom so I can have a; warm towels b; my towel by the shower instead of hanging it on the door handle and c; the rad heats the room rather than burn me leg when on the loo or back of door if i forget to shut the door!!! :lol: But thats another story!
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I don't think you are meant to touch any of the electrics in the house either :roll:
http://www.thediyworld.co.uk/home_electrics.html
The red bit in the middle is the relevant part.
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I don't think you are meant to touch any of the electrics in the house either :roll:
Prob not supposed to breathe either without a greenhouse gas co2 emission certificate :lol:
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I don't think you are meant to touch any of the electrics in the house either :roll:
Prob not supposed to breathe either without a greenhouse gas co2 emission certificate :lol:
:lol: :lol: And then there's the fart, sorry, 'passing wind' tax.....
The problem only really occurs when you come to sell the house. With these new certificates you have to produce to demonstrate all the systems in the house are installed correctly and professionally.
And it might affect your insurance should you ever have to claim following a fire started by an electrical fault :lol:
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Thermostatic rad valves!
The heating system (if its modern closed loop) will have a bypass near the futrthest rad. The boiler will shut off when the system water reaches the set temp as the water will still circulate through the bypass.
TYou can wire stats in parralelle but no stat can overrride another. When one calls for heat it wont be inhibited by the other. If you want this to happen they need to be in series.
System in the flat doesnt have a single stat and thrmostatic valves. The bypass loop ins in the ceiling above the main bedroom rad.
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Go on then I'll have a go :lol:
Firstly I'm a spark not a plumber, but as far as i am aware if you want a stat up and down you will need a heating loop up and down. The boiler can only do as it's told, it wont matter if the stats are wired in parallel or series. In series when one switches off for reaching temperature i.e. the lowest setting (downstairs) the circuit is broken so the boiler turns off. In parallel when the downstairs stat switches off the upstairs is still in circuit so the boiler stays on continuing to heat both up and down. A zone valve is required to isolate which ever loop has reached temperature.
My solution, keep the stat on low to heat the areas that you want background heat in, turn off the rads where you don't want heating and spend £50 on an electric panel rad with integral stat to sit in your bedroom.
As for your towel rail you can get electric ones but to the letter of the law it will be subject to Part P of building regs :wink:
Good luck
Gav
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Go on then I'll have a go :lol:
In parallel when the downstairs stat switches off the upstairs is still in circuit so the boiler stays on continuing to heat both up and down.
That is what I want :D I can turn all the rads off downstairs except on very slightly to give some heat out just to keep the frost off. This way I can use my bedroom to tweek temp up n down just to the rad in my bedroom and bathroom. When guests come round I can turn downstairs up and open up lounge rad valve. Guests go home and back to bedroom stat I go.
My solution, keep the stat on low to heat the areas that you want background heat in, turn off the rads where you don't want heating and spend £50 on an electric panel rad with integral stat to sit in your bedroom.
But surely this uses alot of leccy? Gas is cheaper than leccy is it not? I cant get my head around the most complicated bills in the world EVER.
As for your towel rail you can get electric ones but to the letter of the law it will be subject to Part P of building regs :wink:
Would a water one not be easier to plumb in as it is just going to the other side of my door (not enough room for a rad though) and would involve 2 floor boards to be pulled up and 4 carpet tiles!!??
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In parallel when the downstairs stat switches off the upstairs is still in circuit so the boiler stays on continuing to heat both up and down.
That is what I want :D I can turn all the rads off downstairs except on very slightly to give some heat out just to keep the frost off. This way I can use my bedroom to tweek temp up n down just to the rad in my bedroom and bathroom. When guests come round I can turn downstairs up and open up lounge rad valve. Guests go home and back to bedroom stat I go.
That's not what he said though! When either of the stats are still in circuit the boiler will provide hot water to all the rads. So it won't do what you need. You need to have 2 separate water circuits to be able to switch each one separately. Or thermostatically control each radiator separately.
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I do understand what you want to do, but unfortunately it wont work. The room stat doesn't dictate the output of the boiler, it just lets the boiler know when the room is warm enough and the switches it off. Just because you want downstairs at say 10° and upstairs at say 20° the boiler can't put out two different water temperatures so if the downstairs stat is off and the upstairs is on both get 100% heating. With a zone valve when downstairs is at temperature the valve closes and sends everything upstairs, when downstairs gets cold the valve opens again allowing the hot water to flow through the downstairs loop again.
As for electric heating it wont use much juice for a small room and it would certainly be cheaper then what you have to do at the moment.
A water towel rail would be easier in your case by the sound of it but you will still have the same problem.
Gav
Edit Steve your a faster typer than me :lol:
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Edit Steve your a faster typer than me :lol:
Maybe so... but I'm learning a lot here :D I took one look at the plumbing in the airing cupboard and shut the door.... pipes and valves everywhere :roll: Far too complicated for my single brain cell to cope with :lol:
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I do understand what you want to do, but unfortunately it wont work. The room stat doesn't dictate the output of the boiler, it just lets the boiler know when the room is warm enough and the switches it off. Just because you want downstairs at say 10° and upstairs at say 20° the boiler can't put out two different water temperatures so if the downstairs stat is off and the upstairs is on both get 100% heating. With a zone valve when downstairs is at temperature the valve closes and sends everything upstairs, when downstairs gets cold the valve opens again allowing the hot water to flow through the downstairs loop again.
Sorry guys. I am really bad at describing things and have no way of thinking how to describe it in a drawing either :( :cry:
I only want the heating to kick in downstairs if say I am away for a weekend and it has a really cold bite outside and then the heating will kick in from say 5c and go up to 10c. Hopefully upstairs stat would kick in too but as cold air sinks I guess downstairs would freeze faster?
I'm not after 2 different heats up and down stairs. All I want is my bedroom and bathroom warm and when guests are here the whole house at same temp as bedroom and bathroom.
I don't care about what temp the lounge is or kitchen as I dont go in my lounge at all and my kitchen for all of about 5-10minutes a day and that is on my way to work after making me lunch box for the day so I can go and leap in my car and get warm again!
I wonder if this might help me describe it better?
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Not cost effective-you would have to alter the pipework and seperate the two loops/areas you want to control,fitting an electric zoning/control valve on each one - controled by your thermostats
The "best practice" is to fit thermostatic radiator valves to all but one rad - eg - hall and fit a room thermostat in that area to act as a maximum temperature/boiler interlock - and turn down the areas you dont use
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ok first of all forget the two stat thing, without two loops of pipe its not happening :cry:
What you could do is a mix of all the comments so far:-
Leave the stat where it is set to say 19 turn all the TRV's downstairs right down, if you dont have TRV's just shut the valves down quite far it wont directly control the temp but it will send the hot water off elsewhere (path of least resistance).
Make sure your bedroom and the bathroom have no TRV fitted or are fully open, you must keep an open circuit or you will blow the system.
Next set the boiler out put temperature to level which gives you a comfortable level of heating in the bed and bathroom.
What should happen is that the stat will always be calling for heat, the downstairs rads will give out a little heat whilst most will go to upstairs to the bed and bathroom but when the return water temperature at the boiler hits the boiler output temp it will turn the boiler off. Once the return temp drops the boiler will fire back up.
Not the best solution but to be honest the only way i can think of with your set up.
As for turning on when it's very cold you will need a frost stat that someone mentioned they had in their garage earlier.
TBH in my opinion still cheaper to get a panel rad :lol:
Good luck
Edit: god my typing is getting slower, apologies!
Gav
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just had a whacky thought. how about I move the stat to my bedroom? 1 stat just instead of being in the coldest part of my house it is in my room?
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Basically you need to have your heating system separated in to zones. Adding another room stat in parallel, will only bring in the central heating side of the system when the first room stat drops below its temperature setting. Remember a room stat is only an on/off switch. You would also have a cylinder stat that would operate to give you hot water.
Also remember that any electrical work you do, might be classified under Part P of the building regs. Unless your registered, you have to notify the LABC of any proposed electrical work (ie running a new circuit). My advice, get an electrician as any work done needs to be tested and certified.
Bathrooms are classified as special locations, so ANY electrical work in this area (ie fitting a towel rail), is notifiable under Part P of the building regulations. This also includes kitchens and the outdoors.
If the room stats are wired in series then when the first one reaches its min temperature setting it can only operate the boiler if the second stat is also closed.
If wired in Parallel, as soon as either stat falls below its min temperature setting, the circuit will close brining in the boiler. The problem with this, is that it would also energize both side of the second room stat. And if both areas are cold to start with, then the boiler would not turn off until the largest area is heated (unless this stat is turned right down), regardless if the smallest are has reached its temperature or not.
I’m no plumber, but its Thermostatic rad valves that you need.
Somebody can tell me to shut up now!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Okay. as far as I can see your plan would work.
First check if the thermostat has three wires or two (excluding earth)
Second buy thermostat with same wiring.
Extend wires from existing stat to new stat wiring everything in parallel
Now you are set.
Situation one. You are home alone.
Turn downstairs stat to low, turn off downstairs rads, turn bedroom stat to required temp, turn bedroom rad (and towel rail once fitted) on.
Result. Boiler will run when heat is demanded by bedroom stat, bedroom and towel rail will be warm, other rooms will be cool.
Situation two. You invite Mud Clubbers to stay.
Turn downstairs stat up, turn rads in required rooms on.
Result. Boiler will run when heat called for by downstairs stat, all rads that are turned on will get hot.
I would recommend a time controlled thermostat, you can then pre set different temperatures for different days/times of day. Good investment at about 21quid.
As for the legalities of doing this yourself, I am no expert in part P but if you are allowed to DIY a spur socket, this must also be allowed.
Mike
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Hey Mike.
Are you a plumber by any chance?? If it is a 2 or 3 wire one what is the difference?
The way you described it is so much more in plain english than I can do. Cheers.
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Nope neither plumber or electritian, just a knowledgable DIY artist. I am not 100 sure of the functional difference between two and three wire thermoststats but know from experianece. that you must use the same. The third wire is something to do with reducing sparking on the contacts when switching. I have added a second thermostat at home to achieve similar results.
Mike
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So I guess if you turn the boiler down it would be on more often to maintain temperature? But if your radiators are also turned down, they wouldn't release as much of the heat that the boiler puts into the water. So the boiler kicks in less. Is that right?
Pretty much. Don't forget that if you have "cold" rooms, these will create draughts and reduce the ambient temperature further.
Go for TRV and turn the boiler temperature down. It is more efficient to keep your place at a consistent warm temperature than it is to keep heating it up from cold
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just had a whacky thought. how about I move the stat to my bedroom? 1 stat just instead of being in the coldest part of my house it is in my room?
Except for a like-for-like replacement of a thermostat, zone valve or damaged cable, any work on boiler control wiring is notifiable to building control under Part P of the building regulations.
Should you wish to go to the trouble of the pipework and wiring alterations, there is nothing to stop you having multiple zones in the heating system each controlled by a separate room thermostat. (Thermostatic radiator valves are very good.)
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Last thing I expected to be talking about on here!
http://www.thermsaver.co.uk/heating_controls/rf_program_stat.html
At home we use one of these.
Use TRV's and turn them down in the rooms you do not use and move this to where you spend your time.
Simple, flexible and no wires to run!
not cheap though but there is always eBay.
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if it were me i'd go for TRVs and a programmable stat.
no point haveing 2 stats wont achieve what your after. if your gonna turn off all the rads apart from the one in your room then moving the stat into your room would have an affect.
or do what i've done, turn the stat down to about 19deg and leave well alone, has saved me a fortune in gas bills and if i get chilly i just put a jumper or electric heater on