Mud-club
Chat & Social => The Bar - General Chat => Topic started by: Bob696 on November 14, 2007, 06:51:53
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http://www.transaction-2007.com/phpBB2/index.php
Taken from a Land Rover forum
Hi everyone. Despite my motive for posting here, I must add I am a Land Rover enthusiast to. I own a new Range Rover 4.4 Vogue and love it to bits.
My point in posting here is to draw your attention to a more serious matter...Fuel Prices!
I am a head player in the Transaction Group, you may remember we brought the Government around to our way of thinking back in 2000 when we blockaded all the refineries. Our aim has always been to get cheaper fuel for everyone, not just transport (despite being Transport orientated).
If you want to join us in an imminent fuel protest, bigger, better and far more explosive than in 200, please log on to transaction-2007.com and register your votes of approval or disapproval (we listen to everyones opinions) and tell us what you think of this crazy fuel tax problem that is now out of control in the UK. Pledge your support and join us in protest.
Best Wishes Chris H (Transaction-2007.com)
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Best get some popcorn and get ready to work from home. It's going to be fun watching marshall law on TV ;-)
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I backed the last one, and I'm really not sure this one is a good idea.
Playing for higher stakes as it were this time around.
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The blockades will affect the country. Business *WILL* suffer.
Can't see who it will help in the long run. We can't hold the government to ransom, it DOES NOT WORK. All they might do is knock a few pence off, and then shove it on something else in March. False economy :(
After seeing Gordon Brown in action, I'm not sure he'd give in :shock:
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so what is the answer????
do you continue to pay higher prices until its only the very elite that can afford to run a vehicle....
or do you say something now??
i honestly dont know the answer...( wish i did )... but when you look across the water and see them paying so little for thier fuel then it does grate a bit :(
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The blockades will affect the country. Business *WILL* suffer.
Can't see who it will help in the long run. We can't hold the government to ransom, it DOES NOT WORK. All they might do is knock a few pence off, and then shove it on something else in March. False economy :(
After seeing Gordon Brown in action, I'm not sure he'd give in :shock:
He cant afford to. As I said in the other thread. Fuel isnt the big issue it was, there are more pressing ones, Immigration, Housing issues, Council taxes.
If he backs down on a littl epoint like fuel there WILL be mass protests for the above too, then it'll get nasty.
IMHO the government is holding things together, but only just, there are so many potential ignition points right now and they arent stupid, theres a lot of firefighting going on and I cant see them declaring open season by backing down. I dont know how far the Ill will towards our government goes but I suspect there is a fair amount right now, so its imperitive they deal with anything like thisk quickly and cleanly or it will all go pear shaped.
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but when you look across the water and see them paying so little for thier fuel then it does grate a bit
I thought we'd sorted that issue. See other thread :wink:
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Lets roll over and let the goverment tickle our belly :evil:
Free country,Democracy, I really wonder if we are tied up and gagged in the political sence.
We need an alternitive party, but that will be dozens of years away.
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Maybe the focus of the complaints towards fuel pricing, should be more to improving public transport. Then more people could reduce the usage of their vehicles.
But unfortunately the only answer is more economical vehicles. Leaving the less economical as second vehicles for pleasure use.
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Its Exspensive here $1.28 per litre :shock:
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Fuel is expensive in most European countries these days.
But then look at what the government provides to the public for free.
You will usually find that the contries with lower taxation provide less services.
So the question is what services do you want to give up, just to get cheaper fuel?
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Fuel is expensive in most European countries these days.
But then look at what the government provides to the public for free.
You will usually find that the contries with lower taxation provide less services.
So the question is what services do you want to give up, just to get cheaper fuel?
I'm not sure thats true.
Working in Soton and living in Portsmouth I have the choice
£5 ish for train, plus 2 mile walk each end and inconvienent arrive/depart times adding almost 2 hours to my working day.
£5 by bus + £1.25 to get a bus to Central Portsmouth and £0.75 this end from Soton to Hamble + 2 hours again. And the times are awful.
£4ish for the car and I get here when I want, leave when I want.
In Calgary:
From Acadia to Downtown (8 miles)
Drive, $2/3 of fuel. $10 of parking assuming I find a spot/reserve one.
Train/Bus, 2 min walk, $2 for all day travel anywhere, bus gets in 2 mins before train leaves, train right to downtown about 1 block from where I worked. Busses and trains run at sensible times.
Alberta has NO GST (about half of our VAT bill here gone)
Taxes are lower than here in terms of income tax
No NI, although you do have healthcare but thats still half of NI
This scene is repeated all over the world. Seattle, Vancouver, NYC, San-Fran, etc all the same sort of setup.
Here we seem to think that pricing people onto useless public transport will work while the infrastructure remains broken. We seem to have missed the fact that if these services work, people WILL use them. I would. Much rather sit in a warm train and read then get wound up on the M27.
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I work in the local head office for one of the UK and Europes biggest public transport operators and believe me at least on the bus side of things the goverment NEED to get there finger out.
This is a personal opinion.
Public transport still have to pay for fuel.
It is not subsidided anywhere close to the level people think, 90% is purely commercial.
Would you sell something that costs you money to sell?
Bus companies cant run routes that cost them money either, or they wouldnt exist.
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There is a way to avoid this. Abandon road fund licence. That way we get a tax break and they still get more money out of them as use more fuel. Much fairer.
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There is a way to avoid this. Abandon road fund licence. That way we get a tax break and they still get more money out of them as use more fuel. Much fairer.
The greenies would be on your back then :( using fuel killing the world ect ect ect :roll:
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But for the fact that a tree hugging hippie who has a diet mostly comprising of lentils and cabbage will produce more green house gas from their rs than my car does. :twisted: :D
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In Calgary:
From Acadia to Downtown (8 miles)
Drive, $2/3 of fuel. $10 of parking assuming I find a spot/reserve one.
Train/Bus, 2 min walk, $2 for all day travel anywhere, bus gets in 2 mins before train leaves, train right to downtown about 1 block from where I worked. Busses and trains run at sensible times.
Alberta has NO GST (about half of our VAT bill here gone)
Taxes are lower than here in terms of income tax
No NI, although you do have healthcare but thats still half of NI
This scene is repeated all over the world. Seattle, Vancouver, NYC, San-Fran, etc all the same sort of setup.
But America and Canada don't provide the same level of free health care. Health insurances don't cover major long term illness, so families pick up the tab.
This is there pay off for the lower taxes.
There is a way to avoid this. Abandon road fund licence. That way we get a tax break and they still get more money out of them as use more fuel. Much fairer.
Ok you scrap a tax revenue, so what services are you going to cut to cover the losses, or what are you going to tax more?
At the end of the day, do you want to pay a £1 a litre for fuel to use a luxury (which is what cars are) or £60 to see a doctor every time your ill and be charged the full costs of the medications and vaccinations?
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I work in an area where no public transport goes to so I HAVE to use my Disco every day.
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At the end of the day, do you want to pay a £1 a litre for fuel to use a luxury (which is what cars are) or £60 to see a doctor every time your ill and be charged the full costs of the medications and vaccinations?
Not all cars are luxuries...... but your point is valid!
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I work in an area where no public transport goes to so I HAVE to use my Disco every day.
But there are exceptions, unfortunately they will always suffer for it. But fo rthe majority, how many use the car for convenience rather than cycle or walk?
I live in an area with no public transport, but I don't use my car everyweek. I have never really used motorised vehicles to get round unless the distance is to great. Would rather walk or cycle, but that just might be me being a tight Yorkshireman.
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so what is the answer????
Probably home brew. Am I right in thinking you can make 2500 litres of biodiesel before being taxed now. If you do 25mpg thats about 13,000 miles a year at about 10p per litre if you can find a chippie to give you their used oil, or 40p per litre if you buy it straight.
I only do about 5-6K per year so it's probably not worth investing in a kit as there are a couple of outlets in Sheffield now, but they start at about £1k for a basic one.
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I work in an area where no public transport goes to so I HAVE to use my Disco every day.
If it's just to get to work get a larger moped like a 125cc - £15 road tax and 70mpg. Less depreciation on the Disco, more fun to be had with it.
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I work in an area where no public transport goes to so I HAVE to use my Disco every day.
If it's just to get to work get a larger moped like a 125cc - £15 road tax and 70mpg. Less depreciation on the Disco, more fun to be had with it.
SWMBO won't let me, after having a few accidents she thinks I'll do myself in so I've been banned from 2 wheels :lol: :lol:
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You say something has to give.
At the moment we have one of the highest tax burdens our country has ever seen. And yet our health, education armed and social services are at an all time low.
Why?
I could point the blame at all sorts of things like a non contributing population rise. But i wont in case i offend.
The government bang on about more efficatious use of resources but in that case where is all the tax revenue going if it is all so efficient?
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You say something has to give.
At the moment we have one of the highest tax burdens our country has ever seen. And yet our health, education armed and social services are at an all time low.
Why?
I could point the blame at all sorts of things like a non contributing population rise. But i wont in case i offend.
The government bang on about more efficatious use of resources but in that case where is all the tax revenue going if it is all so efficient?
amen mate............. :wink: im with you on that
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You ask where money could be saved. At the risk of being controversial, and maybe even banned, I shall give you an example of how to save money.
Not long ago, while helping a friend of mine to sort out his parents disability benefits (father worked all his life, degenerative arthritis, can hardly walk, mother 90% loss of sight) and hitting the proverbial wall at every stage... We witnessed a gentleman from certain eastern country pull into the council offices, jump the queue, and kick up a fuss because the benefit money would not give him enough to support his 2 wifes and 6 kids back at home. Funny enough, the same helpful council worker who had been sending us around in circles all day could be seen losing his derriere to help said gentleman.
Now, the gentleman is known to us, he does not work, he has wife and 5 kids in this country, none of whom work, and drives an '06 E class merc. And he still has the guts to claim money to support another 2 wifes (last I checked, bigamy was still a criminal offence in the British legal system), and what's even worse, the same useless git who has been stalling you all day turns into efficiency in person to help the poor old lad.
That would be one way of saving money. By stopping benefits to people like that. Continue by stopping unemployment benefits to those idiots who do not want to work, and who knows, maybe you'll find yourself with some money in the pot that will allow you to give a few more pence to those who really need it, and yet have enopugh so you can cut on taxes.
BTW, if you ever go to Madrid, have a look at the public transport system. £25/month will buy you unlimited travel through the city centre, £50 will do the same, but throughout the county.
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BTW, if you ever go to Madrid, have a look at the public transport system. £25/month will buy you unlimited travel through the city centre, £50 will do the same, but throughout the county
We run buses there :oops:
Can get you a Liverpool area ticket for £44 for 28 days :wink:
I agree in princible to what your saying though.
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In the interests of free speech [1] I have (so far) chosen not to moderate any of the posts in this conversation, however I do feel that we are skating dangerously close to a line of what is considered accurate, tasteful and "proper".
I would politely ask that we all take a step backwards and possibly a deep breath before we comment any further....
Or, to put it another way... "please don't make me lock this thread", and really, really don't make me ban anyone.
[1] I once heard the comment that the freedom of speech wasn't actually the foremost right of an individual, and was actually second only to the freedom to not listen. Advise I feel could be useful in not getting irritated by opinions which may differ from yours :)
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I'm not looking forward to dry pumps. I guess the protestors havent given any thought to people that are completely dependant on pupm fuel for basics (at least they are probably considered basic in this country and time) of living such as electricity and hot water. Hopefully I'll be able to get out to get some more coal when I need it.
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Bring it on. If I can't get to work because I have no fuel, then whose problem is that? Certainly not mine. If my boss starts to say "All officers have to keeptheir cars full up,I'll send him the bill.
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Bring it on. If I can't get to work because I have no fuel, then whose problem is that? Certainly not mine. If my boss starts to say "All officers have to keeptheir cars full up,I'll send him the bill.
Trouble with that is if you can't work you will still get paid
I work for myself and if I can't get fuel to run my business I will get nowt - any of the protesters thought who is going to feed my wife and three kids or pay my mortgage ?
Now you can say that is a selfish attitude, damn right,but no less selfish than starting a stupid protest that I want nothing to do with
Why should I suffer ?
The self same protesters will be the one's first in the queue at the filling stations making sure they have plenty of fuel and stuff anyone else
Bloody Hypocrites
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Bring it on. If I can't get to work because I have no fuel, then whose problem is that? Certainly not mine. If my boss starts to say "All officers have to keeptheir cars full up,I'll send him the bill.
Trouble with that is if you can't work you will still get paid
I work for myself and if I can't get fuel to run my business I will get nowt - any of the protesters thought who is going to feed my wife and three kids or pay my mortgage ?
Now you can say that is a selfish attitude, damn right,but no less selfish than starting a stupid protest that I want nothing to do with
Why should I suffer ?
The self same protesters will be the one's first in the queue at the filling stations making sure they have plenty of fuel and stuff anyone else
Bloody Hypocrites
I understand what you mean V8K. Its just a simplistic attitude I have. During the last protest I was in Scotland and the job were calling me up to get me back. I was even threatened with disobeying orders, but what could I do? No way of getting fuel to get back.
I fail to understand why the prices we pay for fuel in this country are so high compared to Europe. That can't be right.
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Bring it on. If I can't get to work because I have no fuel, then whose problem is that? Certainly not mine. If my boss starts to say "All officers have to keeptheir cars full up,I'll send him the bill.
Trouble with that is if you can't work you will still get paid
I work for myself and if I can't get fuel to run my business I will get nowt - any of the protesters thought who is going to feed my wife and three kids or pay my mortgage ?
Now you can say that is a selfish attitude, damn right,but no less selfish than starting a stupid protest that I want nothing to do with
Why should I suffer ?
The self same protesters will be the one's first in the queue at the filling stations making sure they have plenty of fuel and stuff anyone else
Bloody Hypocrites
yet in the same breath you deny the right of the protesters to have their voice heard. I ran out of fuel last time but I was still there, as did many that were there. Please do get facts straight, first in were EMS before anyone else.
I'm not starting an argument and I can respect your opinion but be careful the words you use lest you be branded with them and check your fact. I was running a business at the time and I felt it more important to stand up and be counted at the time and take the hit.
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Public transport :lol:
There's 2 buses a day from this town and they are full to the brim every morning.
And they dont even go anywhere near where i'd like to go.
I would ride a bike to work but at 14 miles on windey country lanes that dont have pavements and cars race at 60mph +, i'm too scared
Plus there's one stretch of road that i cant avoid floods to 4 feet every winter.
Give me another reason not too use my Land Rover
:roll:
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I'm sure most people like to have a good chat, and a good moan. I work for myself & get chatting with a lot of other folk from all areas of society. I also go for the odd pint & again people like to chat. The point I'm getting to is this - no matter who you talk to, whatever age, gender or profession, the conversation always start going the same way at some point. I don't need to point out any specific areas as i'm sure everyone knows what most peoples gripes are at the moment with this country & its government.
When these conversations get to the point of crossing the line what happens? everyone mumbles a few choice words then shuts up, followed by "someone should start standing up for what we want", or words to that effect.
Like most people a lot of these conversational points I agree with & some I do not. But, when people start to make a stand I feel that they should get the support they deserve. If you agree then make them aware, do not just hide away, then when your having your next pint start ranting about what is wrong with this place!
I think there should be a fuel protest, if nothing else it shows that we will not keep being walked over & when we disagree with a non democratic decision we will make ourselves heard!
We should stand up & make ourselves heard a lot more........ especially about the price of fuel & the benefit system.
These are my opinions & I do know others have their own opinions which I respect, like most people i'm no expert & I know there is no quick fix.
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I'm sure most people like to have a good chat, and a good moan. I work for myself & get chatting with a lot of other folk from all areas of society. I also go for the odd pint & again people like to chat. The point I'm getting to is this - no matter who you talk to, whatever age, gender or profession, the conversation always start going the same way at some point. I don't need to point out any specific areas as i'm sure everyone knows what most peoples gripes are at the moment with this country & its government.
When these conversations get to the point of crossing the line what happens? everyone mumbles a few choice words then shuts up, followed by "someone should start standing up for what we want", or words to that effect.
Like most people a lot of these conversational points I agree with & some I do not. But, when people start to make a stand I feel that they should get the support they deserve. If you agree then make them aware, do not just hide away, then when your having your next pint start ranting about what is wrong with this place!
I think there should be a fuel protest, if nothing else it shows that we will not keep being walked over & when we disagree with a non democratic decision we will make ourselves heard!
We should stand up & make ourselves heard a lot more........ especially about the price of fuel & the benefit system.
These are my opinions & I do know others have their own opinions which I respect, like most people i'm no expert & I know there is no quick fix.
I have to agree smurf, i think something should be done and a protest is more than likly & im willing to support, the last fuel protest the goverment said that it was up to the refinarys to keep the fuel flowing, so by protesting and blocking the refinarys are not really going to make much difference. an idea i have heard doing to rounds is basically bring london to a standstill with cars that wont be movable due to no fuel. if everyones got no fuel then there would be chaose and im sure the message would get through to the goverment as its them we need to get the message accross to . i would love to be in this protest as i need fuel for work as i pay the feul and get reimbursed via milage and if i go no where then that would mean im 25% down on the end month wages which then goes agains mortage and food etc... but its just not something i will be able to attend. this should also help in respect of the refinarys will still be able to deliver and there fore people can and will see be able to purchase fuel at what ever the cost. only people affected would be people in london but most of which use the underground etc. there would only be a few affected that use there own motors and buses.
appologies to anyone affended by the above
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I run a business and would fully support a protest agree with above post.
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Bring it on. If I can't get to work because I have no fuel, then whose problem is that? Certainly not mine. If my boss starts to say "All officers have to keeptheir cars full up,I'll send him the bill.
Trouble with that is if you can't work you will still get paid
I work for myself and if I can't get fuel to run my business I will get nowt - any of the protesters thought who is going to feed my wife and three kids or pay my mortgage ?
Now you can say that is a selfish attitude, damn right,but no less selfish than starting a stupid protest that I want nothing to do with
Why should I suffer ?
The self same protesters will be the one's first in the queue at the filling stations making sure they have plenty of fuel and stuff anyone else
Bloody Hypocrites
yet in the same breath you deny the right of the protesters to have their voice heard. I ran out of fuel last time but I was still there, as did many that were there. Please do get facts straight, first in were EMS before anyone else.
I'm not starting an argument and I can respect your opinion but be careful the words you use lest you be branded with them and check your fact. I was running a business at the time and I felt it more important to stand up and be counted at the time and take the hit.
And where exactly in my post do I deny the right of protesters to have their say ?????
All I am saying is what gives them the damn right to think EVERYONE supports them - I certainly don't as I don't think fuel is too expensive, as has already been said elsewhere it's actually cheaper in real terms now than it used to be - so why should I suffer
Here's a plan - if you don't like the cost of fuel then simple - don't buy the stuff ! - that would get your point across without screwing up my day to day life
If you feel that strongly about it then I'm surprised you don't have an electric car anyway :roll:
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Can I please request that we move away from the personal member on member type posts and get back to a good general debate..
Be nice to each other guys :wink:
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Can I please request that we move away from the personal member on member type posts and get back to a good general debate..
Be nice to each other guys :wink:
Fair point
I didn't mean my comments to be personal but I guess they kinda look that way - not trying to upset anyone, never mind anyone in particular
Just annoyed that they (the organisers of the protest) don't seem to mind who they drag into their argument with the government
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Well is not as bad as the last thread.... Apprently i'm an idiot...
May be true but at least its not been announced on this one LOL :lol:
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Idiot ? - I bet you get called a lot worse than that on a daily basis at work ! :lol:
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I would have to say that another "blockade the refineries" type protest is probably not the way to go - the government and media would find it very easy to portray the protestors as selfish and irresponsible. Remember that these are the kings of spin, and the links between goverment and media are tangled to say the least (there's a lot that doesn't get out, well, unless you read the right sources!). Also worth bearing in mind that most media (and chunks of the government) doesn't seem to think there is life outside the M25.
Far better to do something that would bring things to a halt without endangering the general public. A large selection of artic trailers abandoned around London with flat tyres and full of bricks ought to do it!
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Idiot ? - I bet you get called a lot worse than that on a daily basis at work ! :lol:
Yep, You are right, which is why it didn't bother me too much! :lol:
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I would have to say that another "blockade the refineries" type protest is probably not the way to go - the government and media would find it very easy to portray the protestors as selfish and irresponsible. Remember that these are the kings of spin, and the links between goverment and media are tangled to say the least (there's a lot that doesn't get out, well, unless you read the right sources!). Also worth bearing in mind that most media (and chunks of the government) doesn't seem to think there is life outside the M25.
Far better to do something that would bring things to a halt without endangering the general public. A large selection of artic trailers abandoned around London with flat tyres and full of bricks ought to do it!
Interesting point, I suspect you are 100% right...
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But I haven't got a lorry though, hang on, I'll check Ebay :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I think the point has been missed anyhoo, there wont be another blockade, thats been made clear. However something is planned but no idea what.
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Probably a go slow during rush hour times! thats always fun... NOT! :shock:
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Here's a plan - if you don't like the cost of fuel then simple - don't buy the stuff ! - that would get your point across without screwing up my day to day life
If you feel that strongly about it then I'm surprised you don't have an electric car anyway :roll:
This is what it's all about really - choices. Getting us to use vehicles less and or using vehicles that use less fuel. We all have that option along with our own excuses not to.
It's been said already that our vehicles are a luxury and yet we still make claims that we NEED them rather than just prefer them to carry us around. Even for those that use them to carry work clobber around then it's a case of looking hard about whether your chosen chariot is the most efficient on fuel. If not then you have the 'choice' of using something that is more efficient or paying the premium of ever increasing fuel costs.
The options are out there - we just need to make the choice.
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Most of the suggestions that I have heard so far involve persuading people to avoid 1 companies petrol station EG you don't fill up at a BP garage until BP are force in reducing there price.
The problem with that is that most of the oil companies have deal with the supermarkets (Tesco was supplied by Texaco).
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Maybe we should all start buying our fuel from the continent, it seems to have worked in forcing the duty on cigarettes and alcohol down. Or was that just because the chancellor like a drink and a cigar :roll:
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This is a good starting point. Just a pity it takes so long to filter down. A retro fit kit would be good.
http://www.ricardo.com/general/latestnews.aspx?id=24
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There was an interesting article in the Daily Express yesterday. They alledge that the hike in fuel prices is also due to the City and Hedge Funds...a select few fat cats getting very rich at the expense of your average vehicle owner. :x
The biggest chunk of the £1+ per litre does go to the government. apparently they rake in £44billion a year from vehicle related tax, and only £9billion goes towards road repairs etc. :shock:
Where does the rest go?
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There was an interesting article in the Daily Express yesterday. They alledge that the hike in fuel prices is also due to the City and Hedge Funds...a select few fat cats getting very rich at the expense of your average vehicle owner. :x
The biggest chunk of the £1+ per litre does go to the government. apparently they rake in £44billion a year from vehicle related tax, and only £9billion goes towards road repairs etc. :shock:
Where does the rest go?
So what's new ?
Fat cats always get fatter ....
I still don't understand how anyone can accept the huge difference between US prices and UK prices.
The NHS funding was originally from general taxation.... the motorist, smoker and drinker seem to be funding everything lately.
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Declared interest, I'm a smoker, certainly a few years ago the governments own figures showed the tax on fags paid the whole NHS budget. So it can't be far off the same now given how cigarette duty rises every year. So Prudence Brown does not need your fuel duty for the NHS.
Someone asked what services I would be prepared to lose in return for less fuel duty - fair question. I know of two easy targets:
Trident - three dozen suitcase nukes would be a far more potent deterrent and much cheaper savings £££££££££s
QUANGOS (NGOs) - we (Prudence has no money it is all ours) spend in excess of £140 billion per annum on QUANGOS. For comparison the whole armed services gets £32-35 billion per annum. These are the people who poke their noses into our daily lives and mess with things as they have nothing better to do. Ditch the lot, saving £140 billion per annum which is way more than fuel taxes in total.
And those two are just for starters. Modern governments (not being party political here) rake in vast sums of money in the various forms of taxation then promptly squander about half of it. Sort that out and show me its sorted and I'll pay for the fuel gladly. Show me a country where people die for lack of NHS funding, while some group who no-one elected proclaim themselves responsible for, say, investigating the effect of the new Airbus Superjumbo on small mammals in East Sussex and are granted funding and I'll resent every penny of tax however levied.