Mud-club
Chat & Social => The Bar - General Chat => Topic started by: SteveW on August 23, 2008, 19:20:21
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I wondered if I could get some help off all you lovely people out there.
I was driving my Jimny earlier when I was stopped by the local police who kindly informed me that my car is illegal based on the fact that, and I quote "If someone falls infront of it I might run them over". This is because my car has a 3" lift and a winch bumper, therefore alot of the front tyres show! He also kindly informed me that if I get seen by the traffic police they will take the car off me! There should be a photo attached if I've done things right.
Can anyone comment on what I've been told or tell me where I can find the official law because the cars my daily drive so I need to get this resolved. Also I could do with sorting things because I was going to go to Kirton tomorrow but I'm now conscious that everytime the cop sees me he's going to stop me!
I would also imagine that this will have implications for pretty much anyone who drives a lifted offroader. Also, I don't want to be seen as being childish but if this is right then where do tractors, motorbikes and cars such as caterhams stand because they all show alot more wheel than me.
Help would be much appreciated.
Steve.
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Got to admit I have never heard of that one before!!
Paul
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aload of [!Expletive Deleted!] mate! :lol: aslong as the tyres arnt visible when you look direcley down whilst standing over them ie. the arches cover them up then it should be fine.
also, if someone fell in front of you your going to run them over anyway 3" lift or not!
my two pennies worth anyway.
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My thoughts exactly!
Plus, if it was actually illegal wouldn't he have given me a producal to make me get it sorted!
Steve.
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Total Rubbish
tell him to try it and see you in court ....
If it passes a MOT it's legal ...
The only thing you need to make sure is theres nothing sharp on the front I think there is a minimum 3mm rad is as sharp as you can go.
as for the height , I don't think 3" is much compared with some (http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/elite4x4/Windows-1252BL0RldmljZSBNZW1vcnk-2.jpg)
even standard stuff (http://www.4x4offroads.com/image-files/mercedes-benz-406-unimog-1975-mogmarch21d.jpg)
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also, if this gets through an SVA and is 100% road legal yours defiantly will be!
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a318/goochbag/a236.jpg)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a318/goochbag/u1902933355.jpg)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a318/goochbag/user750_pic995_1212945270.jpg)
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I would also imagine that this will have implications for pretty much anyone who drives a lifted offroader. Also, I don't want to be seen as being childish but if this is right then where do tractors, motorbikes and cars such as caterhams stand because they all show alot more wheel than me.
I used to own a Suzuki TL 1000S (like the one below). This bike and pretty much every motorbike ever made has the tyre protruding at the front!
(http://www.shanghaiexpat.com/modules/MDForum/files/2000_tl1000s_red_520)
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Cheers for all the comments, thought I was right in the thinking that he was wrong. Going to resolve it the easy way and go to the main cop shop round here and ask them as I want to get things sorted so that I can go to Kirton tomorrow.
Steve.
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Steve if they were confident that your vehicle is illegal they would have given you a producer. An MOT is generally (but not always) proof that the vehicle can be used legally on the Queens Highway. Were these guys traffic plod or ordinary PC's. Having worked nearly 20 years in the motorcycle trade the level of ignorance that exists in the police force was scary. I once sold a bike to a guy who was stopped less than a mile from the show room and given a producer because his tyre didn't have enough tread. The tyre was all but brand new, perfectly legal but of a pattern that didnt have tread cut in continuous groves from one side of the tyre to the other. It cost us half an hour to calm down an irate customer and an MOT top comply with his producer. Ever tried to MOT a vehicle thats less than 3 mths old? but who was the guy to believe - Mr trustworthy police man or 'Smarmy Sales person!
Don't worry about it Steve as long as you've got an MOT and all mods are declared to the insurance company you will be OK. Going to the cop shop might not resolve the issue, but go to a recognised Vehicle Inspector to check out any grey areas might help.
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ps. if your going over to Kirton pop in and say hi to Derrick from LRS. He sells bits n bobs inside the cafe area. He knows me n my Jimny very well n can take a look at it to give you his opinion on its Legality. He is a qualified MOT (motorcycle) inspector so he knows some of the legal grey areas.
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An Mot doesn't imply the car is legal to be on the road, only that it has an MOT certificate. It might not pass SVA, but could still qualify for an MOT - which explains some of the vehilces that have been put on road.
But in any case, I can't see the Jimny being illegal for road use. Otherwise he'd have stopped the car and made you walk home, let alone do a producer! :lol:
If you've got his number, I'd put a complaint in!
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I hope you get this sorted, id complain to the station.
I put a post on here a while ago about coppers on "operation boy racer" etc pulling local loads for noisy exhausts etc (for which there is no legal DB level I am aware of) and most people thought it was ok to pull them. Now Im not condoning plonkers who do donuts round the town center, but my point was "for whom the bell tolls" and if they are on targets to pull "modded" cars then they dont give a toss if its Mr Chav or your car, all sounds like results when in the local paper. Thats what Nu labour have done to policing and don't for gods sake take a photo of them or youll be off to Guantanamo Bay.
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By their logic a vast number of completely standard cars would be illegal - pretty much everything has enough of a gap between the front bumper and the road to fit at least your head in.
Had he managed to confuse your car with a tram? They're the only things I know of with a mechanism to stop anyone hit by it from going under the wheels!
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if he stops u again just say u r trying to help reduce deaths on the road as if they fall in front of u the chances r u will go over with out hitting them due to the lift and recommend he has his police car lifted to also help lol
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Having worked nearly 20 years in the motorcycle trade the level of ignorance that exists in the police force was scary.
Unfortunatley I agree
noisy exhausts etc (for which there is no legal DB level I am aware of)
There is, but I don't recall what it is. That said some exhausts that sound loud pass a noise emissions test that a family car wouldn't.
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As one of the fascist oppressors of the down trodden masses, I thought I'd give my opinion.
You can have what ever width wheels you like on your car, as long as the width of the tyre is covered as you look down upon it.
You are not allowed to have any sharp/jagged protrusions on the body work that could cut or injure if someone walks into it or is hit by the vehicle.
As for the height of the lift, to the best of my knowledge, I have never heard of that breaking any rules in relation to the Construction and Use regulations, which is the info that you want.
I do have a traffic law book around somewhere; I'll try to find what the act and sections are.
What was the document he gave you? Was it a 7 day one to take in your driving documents, or a 14 day Vehicle Defect Rectification Scheme form telling you to get it sorted and then checked by an MoT tester?
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As one of the fascist masses for the down-trodden oppressors, I think we'd very much appreciate your input on this one Mr Pyle!
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Steve
Listen to the lord!!!! he may answer your prays!!!
That was bit religous for a sunday
I need more beer
Dazza :D
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Good to see everyone agrees with me on this one.
And to answer Lord Shagg-Pyle, he didn't give me a producer of any kind leading me to believe there's nothing wrong with my vehicle or he would have done. How can he expect me to alter it to make it legal if he's not going to tell me what legal is!
Steve.
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I have been stopped a couple of times by local plod when driving my hybrid stripped down. http://share.ovi.com/media/Muddymike.Land-Rover/Muddymike.10134?sort=5
I was then followed into town by a traffic car which to my relief drove on past when I parked. Alas when I came back from the chip shop the same traffic car was parked behind me and two bobbies were eying up the hybrid. To my immense relieve the opening statement from one of them was " Is this the one that was in LRO?" Turned out he was a fellow enthusiast, and went on to answer a few questions and agree there was absolutely nothing wrong with me driving it stripped down.
So why not approach the next traffic cop you come accros, tell him the story and get a more informed opinion.
Mike
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I was pulled by local enforcer boys in blue a few years back in a lightweight..... her comment to me was..... "Are you just out on a bit of a joy ride from the barracks"........... Hmmm the civvy plates might just have been a small clue......... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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I have been stopped a couple of times by local plod when driving my hybrid stripped down. http://share.ovi.com/media/Muddymike.Land-Rover/Muddymike.10134?sort=5
Odd, I've driven my 2A stripped down for a week or two, plus a motorway trip all the way down to Stockport and wasn't pulled at any stage. :-.
At College:
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a398/RPooley/88221723.jpg)
Random clip (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0BDqXtURF50).
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Cool. Of course your Series won't atract as much attantion form the suffers as it's faily standard. The law allows you to omit fitting wipers if the screen can be folded up/down too, not sure when this was stopped though :-k but Westfileds and Atoms don't have to have windscreens do they?
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Good to see everyone agrees with me on this one.
And to answer Lord Shagg-Pyle, he didn't give me a producer of any kind leading me to believe there's nothing wrong with my vehicle or he would have done. How can he expect me to alter it to make it legal if he's not going to tell me what legal is!
Steve.
If you weren't given any bits of paper telling you to get it sorted in 14 days, then in all fairness, I wouldn't bother too much.
I've dealt with cars that have been modified, and if I haven't been sure if it is legal, I've let them go and gone and researched it with the experts to find out and then got back to them.
It saves a lot of egg on faces and also the person I dealt with doesn't think I'm a complete arse!
A good bit of PR.
I don't wish to jump to conclusions but it sounds like you met someone who thought they knew a bit more than they actually do, which is a shame.
If you get any more comeback, let me know, as I would be very interested to know under what Act and Section the offence is of 'Having a raised car may cause injury'. If it is an offence, I shall nick myself. That'll get my figures up, not that we have to keep to figures you understand, er, umm, I say weren't the Olympics good? :oops:
As for the driving of a stripped down Landy, not a problem, providing the door bottoms are in place.
Again, I wouldn't have a problem with it, although the idea of insects and road gravel flicking into the face is a bit beyond me.
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Lord Shagg
I am sure this has been done to death round here, but i can't find any info.
Last year there was a big thing that "Bull bars kill pedestrians and the EEC are banning them."
What is the truth of the matter?
Thanks
Ed
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What I think has happened is that the big ARB style metal type ones are no longer legal to be bought brand new in the UK, but these flimsy plastic ones are still legal. Almost defies the point of having them in the first place if they're flimsy rubbery stuff in my opinion. :roll:
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noisy exhausts etc (for which there is no legal DB level I am aware of)
There is, but I don't recall what it is. That said some exhausts that sound loud pass a noise emissions test that a family car wouldn't
This is one area where the MOT and SVA differ. Currently for any vehicle to pass SVA inspection it has to pass an exhaust noise test. I believe (but not 100%) that the current limit is 89db. For MOT urposses it is up to the tester to decide if the exhaust note is too loud. Up until a few years ago the exhaust had to carry a ' BS Kite' mark but that was dropped I believe when Europe decided not to recognise it. So now its down to the guy who tests it to make the decission as to if the exhaust is too loud or not.
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Lord Shagg
I am sure this has been done to death round here, but i can't find any info.
Last year there was a big thing that "Bull bars kill pedestrians and the EEC are banning them."
What is the truth of the matter?
Thanks
Ed
We have had no directive in relation to Bull bars, but I will 'assume' (which is something I don't like doing!) that if something was to happen with a vehicle fitted with a bullbar, that that would be noted in any subsequent reports and inferrence may be drawn.
In all fairness, I've never had a bull bar on any of my landys, as I don't personally have the need for one.
As for them killing pedestrians as is often shouted at in the Press, in nearly 18 years of being in the Job, I can probably count on one hand how many prangs I've been to that have involved 4x4's. The vast majority have involved 'normal' cars, usually as a result of bad driving and rarely as a result of mechanical defects
I'll keep my ears open in relation to anything coming through.
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What I think has happened is that the big ARB style metal type ones are no longer legal to be bought brand new in the UK, but these flimsy plastic ones are still legal. Almost defies the point of having them in the first place if they're flimsy rubbery stuff in my opinion. :roll:
That's what I understood too - new ones have to meet various standards which pretty much ensure they're the rubbery type. There may be a get-out for parts fitted to older vehicles as you still seem to be able to buy the steel type "A" bars for example.
Given they mostly seem to sell to urban 4x4s wanting to look tough and be able to park by ear I suspect the rubber ones are probably more use! I know the standard Disco one is a liability as it makes your approach angle far worse and adds a load of extra weight on the nose.
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There is an EC directive for manufacture & sale of 'non complient' front bars
here's a link (http://www.endura-fps.com/pdf/200566ECDirective.pdf) to a copy of the directive
As far as I understand - it is illegal to manufacture or sell a non-compliant bar but not illegal for an owner to fit one.
Most, if not all, suppliers have stopped selling metal A bars
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Its illegal to sell one for road use! They can be sold for 'off road' use. The grey area comes when its illegal to sell them but not to fit them?
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To be fair, it's not that grey an area.
As far as I'm aware (and I have had this discussion with a few people) it is illegal for manufacturers to produce none type approved bumpers with a-bars, or a-bars in general after a specific date. Any they had on their shelves up and to that date are fair game for being sold and/or fitted.
Hence the theory is that, if people stop making them then the ones on the shelves will sell out in due course (not to mention that the manufacturers are likely to be reluctant to sell anything they still have at this point for fear of reprisals) and hence they become rare / obsolete very quickly.
Aside from disagreeing with the law itself, it is quite an elegant solution.
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As for the driving of a stripped down Landy, not a problem, providing the door bottoms are in place.
Again, I wouldn't have a problem with it, although the idea of insects and road gravel flicking into the face is a bit beyond me.
Ahh, well, you see officer, its like this... I actually remove the whole door (Lightweight ones just lift off) and that is how I was driving when traffic cop said it was ok.
Mike
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As for the driving of a stripped down Landy, not a problem, providing the door bottoms are in place.
Again, I wouldn't have a problem with it, although the idea of insects and road gravel flicking into the face is a bit beyond me.
Ahh, well, you see officer, its like this... I actually remove the whole door (Lightweight ones just lift off) and that is how I was driving when traffic cop said it was ok.
Mike
Ditto. Mine is always driven and MOT'd with no doors..........
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg26/auf_wiedersehen_pet/Andy%20Hunting/garden006.jpg)
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have you been back to the fascist oppressors hq for a definitive answer yet then steve?
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I went to the main station on saturday night and there was noone to speak to in person but the receptionist put me onto someone on the phone who said that as long as my tyres are legal he can't see a problem.
I also went to Tong on Sunday and one of the marshals there is also a copper, he also said that he didn't know of a law regarding visibility of the tyre from the front.
Thinking about it the receptionist gave me a number for traffic law so I'll try them and see what they say.
Steve.
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While we are talking about this sort of stuff, what about bush wires? I always thought they were illegal but I've seem a number of 4x4s with them on.
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While we are talking about this sort of stuff, what about bush wires? I always thought they were illegal but I've seem a number of 4x4s with them on.
They would probably fall into the 'sharp/jagged edges likely to cause harm' category. Worst case scenario is that a pedestrian/cyclist gets clipped by the vehicle, and caught on the wires that would then act like cheese wire. Not pleasant. My advice would be if you are on the road, unclip them. Stops you getting done under the con and use rules.
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I suspect my old Sammy would have had trouble if front view of the tyres was a problem, you could see *all* of the tyre! I won't mention that they protruded about 3" from the arches, rubbed the chassis on full lock and the chassis was exposed (sharp edges?) at the front :oops:
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While we are talking about this sort of stuff, what about bush wires? I always thought they were illegal but I've seem a number of 4x4s with them on.
Have you seen the lift shaft scene from the 1st Omen film?
If they aren't illegal, they should be!
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While we are talking about this sort of stuff, what about bush wires? I always thought they were illegal but I've seem a number of 4x4s with them on.
Have you seen the lift shaft scene from the 1st Omen film?
If they aren't illegal, they should be!
It's ok Not many lifts are fitted with Bush Wires :lol: :lol:
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Total Rubbish
tell him to try it and see you in court ....
If it passes a MOT it's legal ...
The only thing you need to make sure is theres nothing sharp on the front I think there is a minimum 3mm rad is as sharp as you can go.
as for the height , I don't think 3" is much compared with some (http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii39/elite4x4/Windows-1252BL0RldmljZSBNZW1vcnk-2.jpg)
Woo, famous :dance:
Never had a problem with mine. Comes complete with sticky out tyres, bush wires, obscured front number plate and more jagged edges than a 10 car pile up. Never been pulled in almost 5 years of driving it, touch wood......
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i311/datsteve/Stickers/P1010232.jpg)
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i311/datsteve/Stickers/P1010236.jpg)
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steve your a bad bad boy but your truck is mean and no one messes about with you :twisted:
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Would I be right in thinking that a pick axe fitted to the front wing might be considered possibly dangerous to pedestrians :oops:
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Would I be right in thinking that a pick axe fitted to the front wing might be considered possibly dangerous to pedestrians :oops:
Possibly and I'm sure an insurance company would try and use it as an excuse not to payout in the event of a claim.
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Would I be right in thinking that a pick axe fitted to the front wing might be considered possibly dangerous to pedestrians :oops:
Possibly and I'm sure an insurance company would try and use it as an excuse not to payout in the event of a claim.
I'd have to agree with that. Insurance companies will do anything to get away without paying out. The robdogs!
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If thats the case, then the pedestrian must of been carrying it officer ;)
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Cheered my self up reading this... what a load of crap... And I'm Plod like LSP
No matter how high your lift, if someone fall infront of your car you are going to gun them over... if it lifted there is a chance you will go over them with out touching them!
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Cheered my self up reading this... what a load of crap... And I'm Plod like LSP
No matter how high your lift, if someone fall infront of your car you are going to gun them over... if it lifted there is a chance you will go over them with out touching them!
I couldn't agree more. Of course if you have a set of really chunky M/T tyres on, they may just get caught in the tread and no harm done!
I'd rather have a car that is lifted, than a blinged up, lowered Saxo that gets grounded if it goes over a fag paper! No offence to Saxo owners intended. :twisted:
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It was to do with the sale of such items, old stock could still be sold. But no new items could be manufactured or imported into the country. If already fitted or owned, then you are still able to use. Not sure how this covers second hand bullbars and A-bars of a non foam veriaty.