Don't let Mud-Club go the pay <Name Removed> went!

[EvilEd]

Just read this....
http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=12503&highlight=

Stinks of censorship.... it's the ruin of clubs like this... Sort it out moderators... dunno what this guy did, or what he said, but I am already on his side because he has lost the right of free speech.... It's not the way to run a club!

If he's a wally, then everyone will know he's a wally, we don't need Gimps to look after us!

If you see fit to delete this, then delete my account as well! Can't be doing with another site going down the pan for censorship... next you'll start editing posts so that they say what you want them to say, that's what happened on <Name Removed> and is why PajeroUK now exists....

Nuff said.

[Jim-Willy]

Pointless post.  Nobody including the Mods can want rid of Mikee but you can't have links to foul language on a site viewed by women and kids.  It aint censorship it common sense.  I'm the most foul mouthed individual on this forum and my opinions are extreme and if i can be reasonable so can everyone else.  There are no holds barred forums out there and they are full of cr*p.

[EvilEd]

I saw no foul language or links on the post I linked too... but it's locked and that is heavy handed of the mods... he asked a fair question... if he really wanted an answer, it was up to him. I can understand asking someone, either in PM or publicly to remove a link, or, if it is that offensive, then remove the link and put a note in that it was removed by admins... But locking his post so that others could not reply to his question!!!!

I'd be P'ed if it was me! and I think rightly so.

[Bulli]

I always read Mikes posts and they are generally full of common sense but rules are rules. If you want to go have a shouting match then this is the wrong forum for you. I'm heavily involved in a club site and if you break the rules you are off so i think the moderators are being fair. You can argue about any subject without the need to resort to expletives...thats why there are so many different ways English can be put together.

[EvilEd]

As you will notice,ive been put on probation,i have no probs with this although i do feel that others are getting away with more than me,


what i now want to no is every1's opinion on me being on probation,if you think its apt say so,if not say so aswell,

knowing my luck anything i post may been deemd offensive but at the end of the day we are all adults so should be able to have a convo likie adults & not jump up on any soap boxes,


this post may be edited as i think of more to say


Let the flaming comence
mike  

Please can you highlight the expletives?

[strapping young lad]

read it again and also read muddyweb's reply

warnings were given

think about it, if it were that strict we would all receive warnings at some point, i dont know what v8 said or did to cause warnings but it was enough to get them.

its not draconian here at all, i dont even own a bloody 4x4!

how relaxed is that! ;)

[Thrasher]

Most expletives are handled by our content filter - but if there is a link out to another site that is not suitable - we must react. This is a family forum - my youngest is 7 and he has access to the site.

Warnings have been issued prior to what has happened. I value Mikee's input - and do not want to see him leave. It's just a case of reading what you cut and paste, or thinking about what you link to - if it is offensive - WARN the clickee ;)

[Jim-Willy]

As you will notice,ive been put on probation,i have no probs with this although i do feel that others are getting away with more than me,


what i now want to no is every1's opinion on me being on probation,if you think its apt say so,if not say so aswell,

knowing my luck anything i post may been deemd offensive but at the end of the day we are all adults so should be able to have a convo likie adults & not jump up on any soap boxes,


this post may be edited as i think of more to say


Let the flaming comence
mike  

Please can you highlight the expletives?

He has posted some questionable jokes and a previous post linked to some off language (I have posted some less than OK comments myself)  This post is not isolated.  I weren't offended but that aint the point, Mikee can defend himself (He seems like a good and knowedgeable bloke) and doesn't need this type of anti-authoritarian junk as it does no good to anyone.  Over and out as far as i'm concerned.

[EvilEd]

But you've locked this thread for NO REASON, is there a link, or are there expletives? no, so your reasons for this are non existent in this context.

I have not seen or looked for the "Other Threads". my point is that you have locked this particular thread in a heavy handed gesture that is wrong and unsupportable with your terms and conditions. This is vindictive and promotes a bad view of the club. I think you should put your hands up and admit that there is nothing wrong with this particular post and let it run its course. I agree completely with removing bad language and links to dodgy sites, but neither of these apply to this particular thread.. you have "Hung" him for his previous record and not on the merits of that post which is completely in line with your terms and conditions.

[Gary]

One aspect of setting a public forum up that I certainly wasn't aware of before it was explained to me by another very popular forum that a lot of us also use, is that the people who set the forums up are Legally accountable for it's content.

We now have in this country an imported claims culture, whether accidental or liablous..........thanx to America's example.

Contrary to popular belief, we aren't really living in a Country with a  freedom of speech, that's just life.

Just think of the implications and the work involved in moderating/operating this free website facility. Us, the users can choose when we feel like participating but Tim and his crew have an obliglation to constantly forfill. It's a difficult job to do and as the old saying goes, you can't please all of the people all of the time.

I don't know Mikey that well but he contributes a lot to this forum but that doesn't mean he can forget the rules which we all have to operate by. We all have to use our common sense and show curtious respect, it's only fair.
This is a family site and so this naturally has to be taken into account when judging the text typed or linked content.

I'm not taking sides and I haven't had a chance to speak to Mikey on MSN to get his version of events but I just wanted to share my thoughts on the subject.

Kindest Regards, Gary

[Sider]

But you've locked this thread for NO REASON, is there a link, or are there expletives? no, so your reasons for this are non existent in this context.

I have not seen or looked for the "Other Threads". my point is that you have locked this particular thread in a heavy handed gesture that is wrong and unsupportable with your terms and conditions. This is vindictive and promotes a bad view of the club. I think you should put your hands up and admit that there is nothing wrong with this particular post and let it run its course. I agree completely with removing bad language and links to dodgy sites, but neither of these apply to this particular thread.. you have "Hung" him for his previous record and not on the merits of that post which is completely in line with your terms and conditions.

It is not as much because of profanity in this post, Ed, but because he is making public a private matter between himself and the moderators.

Don't take me wrong, I personally think we are being a bit prudish with the moderation, but it is not for me to decide what can and cannot be posted. That is, ultimately, a matter for the webmaster to decide, and the moderators to enforce.

BTW, Jim-willy. You have caused an incredible ammount of offence between the radical feminists in this forum :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[muddyweb]

Stinks of censorship.... it's the ruin of clubs like this... Sort it out moderators... dunno what this guy did, or what he said, but I am already on his side because he has lost the right of free speech.... It's not the way to run a club!

No, you don't know what he did... nor am I going to make a public issue of it.  
He has not lost his right to free speech... he still has a forum account and is still posting helpful and useful content
If we had wanted to exercise our 'draconian cencosrship', we would have just deleted the post... we didn't.

If he's a wally, then everyone will know he's a wally, we don't need Gimps to look after us!

You may not need someone to look after you, but as has been stated, there are more age groups and types of people who use this site than the over 18, un-offendable male...  and we have a responsibility to 'look after' some of those people.

If you see fit to delete this, then delete my account as well! Can't be doing with another site going down the pan for censorship... next you'll start editing posts so that they say what you want them to say, that's what happened on POKUC and is why PajeroUK now exists

The moderating team on Mud-Club does, I believe, an excellent job.   They have a very straighforward set of guidlines which disallow obscenity and legally questionable material, they also must take into account specific issues from other members who find posted content offensive.  This is by no means an easy job, and I applaud and support them wholheartedly in the work they do.    If you want to see a forum go down the pan very quickly, take away the hard work the moderating team carries out, or take away their powers to bring to book people who choose not to respect their requests.

I will re-state what I originally stated.   Mike's contribution to the forum is valuable and welcomed.  If he continues to post within the forum guidelines then we very much want him to stay a part of the club, and he will be taken off probation in the near future.

[Bob696]

Different target audience. I am happy with the moderation that does occur.

I have been asked to stop something once and I was happy to oblige as the request 'fitted in'.

On another board I had a thread deleted, no warnings just gone as is the habit of that board. I dont go there much.

On the other extream is ORRPA (moderators feel free to delete the name if you want). Anything seems to go and it is simply not my cup of tea. Others love it it and I can see why, it has its place but I dont feel comfortable there.

The plus side is that I can read the M/C forum at work (if I get a chance). I cant get onto the less family orientated sites :shock:

[ian_s]

we all agreed to the terms of registration when we joined this forum.
if you want to read them, follow the register link at the top of the page.

[Eeyore]

Got to agree with some of the comments later on here.

We've all agreed to abide by a particular code of conduct. Go beyond it and the Mods will have a duty to do something.

Thats life. Many, many folk have over stepped the mark and most have just said 'okay, live and learn'.

Mud-Club is a moderated forum - and all the better for it. Other forums are less moderated and get far, far more trouble and flaming than we do. And personally, I'm glad we don't allow adult postings, anti-semitism, homophobia, nationalism and whole host of other social scourges to have 'free speech' on this forum. THAT is what makes Mud-Club what it is. Fun, friendly, free, respectfull. See how I added that last bit in - I'm good, me!

It's a bit like going to the pub. Some pubs cater for a quiet few beers and amusing banter. They sell pork scratching and probably have a doms team. Other pubs are dead quiet during the week but come alive on the weekend as people swill as much affordable lager as possible before hitting:
a) a night club
b) the floor in a drunken stupor, or
c) some lad what wa looking at your lass funny, like.

Now, as a responsible parent, which pub would take your kids into?

As Mod, I feel we have a duty to keep it fun and friendly. Can't blame us for that really, can you?

cheers
 8)
Eeyore

Mud-Club: serving the 4x4 community to over two years.
ROAR

[EvilEd]

Hold on, I am being flamed here for saying he should be allowed to post rude and profanity ridden posts... I have never said that... and support the moderators in that role 100%. what I don't support is the censorship of free speech. He made a post that had no profanity, did not link to another site where the mods had no control, and asked a simple question.

And a Mod Locked it... If he wants to bring something out in public, then let him, as I understand it you have nothing to hide as you did it for a very good reason. Or have you something to hide?

"He has not lost his right to free speech... "

Oh, so this is the Iraqi forum now....? (Or the labour party conference)

Maybe the new MudClub motto should be "Say what you want, so long as we agree with it" ??? That is the way the <Name Removed> has gone and their membership is leaving in droves. I don't want to see MudClub go the same way...

Mod posts that have bad language. Mod posts that link to dodgy sites.. But don't mod posts for personal preference which is what happened here!

[muddyweb]

When Mike's account was put on probation, a PM was sent to him explaining the reasons why.  It also explained how he should appeal against that decision if he so wished.  

The post was not locked because of its content, it was locked to prevent it being hijacked and turning into a devisive, destructive thread.

To quote from Mike's post :  "what i now want to no is every1's opinion on me being on probation,if you think its apt say so,if not say so aswell,"

The decision to put an account on probation is not taken lightly, it is not done glibly and it is not taken by any one person.   There is no way that a poll on whether it is "apt" could be useful or accurate without all the facts, and to publish that would have been, in my view, counter-productive and would have done nothing more than stir up bad feeling.

Ironically... if we'd been the evil censors some would make us out to be, we would have just deleted it, and this entire conversation would never have even started...  hardly the actions of people who don't like debate.

[EvilEd]

The post was not locked because of its content, it was locked to prevent it being hijacked and turning into a devisive, destructive thread.

But in doing so, you have decided to censor free speech. That is a right everyone is entitled to, and it is also a right that you cannot win the arguement against.

Unless the Mods have something to hide, then you should unlock that post.

I would suggest other members back me on this, otherwise you will never be able to make an informed decision based on the information held on this site! If you are only seeing what you are "Meant to see" then you are being treated like numbers rather than members!

How many soldiers died in the 1st and 2nd world wars to keep your right to free speech? And you enjoy that right by running this forum. Do you really think you have the right to take someones away?? no, I don't think so!

Why is it so hard for you guys to admit you were heavy handed and sort this out?

[muddyweb]

You seem to speaking very freely, and nobody is stopping you.

Try as you might, you will struggle to turn this into an argument that we are stifling people's ability to express an opinion.  That thread was locked for specific reasons.  

You are perfectly entitled to your view that this was a heavy handed approach, just as entitled as I am to view that it wasn't.

[Hightower]

How many soldiers died in the 1st and 2nd world wars to keep your right to free speech?

Oh for goodness sake, grow up.

Do you really think you have the right to take someones away?? no, I don't think so!

On this forum, actually they do.  It's their backsides on the line if ever anything went legal, not yours.
Just accept their decisions (and reasons behind them) and get on with it.  Please!!

[Eeyore]

"He has not lost his right to free speech... "
Oh, so this is the Iraqi forum now....? (Or the labour party conference)

Oh dear. :roll:

In the UK there is NO RIGHT of free speech - there never has been.

And if I'm honest the kinds of attitudes expressed when moderation has to raise its head are frankly dissapointing. A decison was made. It may contested, but why do it publicly where current outbursts are doing the discussion no favours?

I don't want a flame war, I don't want insults and even conflict makes me sick, but folk are insisting on using very volatile language and attitudes. Hostility is not a good look.

I fully support the actions of those involved within this moderation issue.

Shame others cannot

cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[EvilEd]

How many soldiers died in the 1st and 2nd world wars to keep your right to free speech?

Oh for goodness sake, grow up.

Grow up? Maybe you should visit some of the coutries where they do not have free speech? This I actually find quote offensive!

Do you really think you have the right to take someones away?? no, I don't think so!

On this forum, actually they do.  It's their backsides on the line if ever anything went legal, not yours.
Just accept their decisions (and reasons behind them) and get on with it.  Please!!

Okay, I'll tell you about <Name Removed> where they started off like this, then moved on to editing posts that they did not like, and even posting modified comments by people in an effort to make them look bad.

You all enjoy the right to offroad, and no-one wants to see that taken away... but you are happy for the mods to take away members rights just like that and without a fight... Maybe the government should just close all byways to motorised transport, and say "Tuff Doo Dahs" to anyone that opposes them....

Pretty hypocritical!

I'll fight for what I believe in.... That includes the use of "Green Lanes" and the right to free speech.

[paul_humphreys]

How many soldiers died in the 1st and 2nd world wars to keep your right to free speech?

Oh for goodness sake, grow up.

Do you really think you have the right to take someones away?? no, I don't think so!

On this forum, actually they do.  It's their backsides on the line if ever anything went legal, not yours.
Just accept their decisions (and reasons behind them) and get on with it.  Please!!

Well said Simon. If the sh*t hits the fan it is the people who run the site that will be hit!!!

[EvilEd]

But he never put anything Illegal on that post...!

[TimM]

The post was not locked because of its content, it was locked to prevent it being hijacked and turning into a devisive, destructive thread.

To quote from Mike's post :  "what i now want to no is every1's opinion on me being on probation,if you think its apt say so,if not say so aswell,"

I don't know what he did (and don't want too), I don't get offended by bad language (in moderation), and would have definately voted for a 'STAY' as I suspect most others would.

With a huge vote for a stay this would put pressure on the moderators to restore his 'status' sooner (I'm sure it will come back with time), and this would then make a mokery of the system.

Just imagine if a car theif was put on probation after their offense, if they raised a petition of enough names - should we let them off?

He has been 'downgraded' RATHER THAN THROWN OUT for posting offensive material which is against Mud-Club rules, if he doesn't feel that this is correct or justified I gather he can communicate with the moderators via PM or email etc.

He knows what he has done, and so do the moderators, WE DON'T, lets just hope that this all sorts itself out soon, AND STOP BICKERING.

AREN'T WE HERE TO TALK ABOUT MUD?

[datalas]

How many soldiers died in the 1st and 2nd world wars to keep your right to free speech? And you enjoy that right by running this forum. Do you really think you have the right to take someones away?? no, I don't think so!

Several million in answer to your question, some of them members of my immediate family on both sides, and somehow I don't think that locking a thread on a forum is quite as draconian as attempting to take over the planet, nor do I see that mikee being asked politely to discuss it with the admins will lead to the death of several million people, perhaps I am being nieve.

Secondly "and you enjoy that right by running this forum".  No, we don't.  By running this forum we are legally resposible for not only our own views but the views of all members and the content of the forum itself.  If someone were to take specific legal objection then we would be quite viciously stamped upon.

Thirdly "Do you really think you have the right to take someones away??"..  No, we don't which is probably a good reason why we haven't done so.   Mikee is the first so far to have been put on probation, and I genuinely hope that he continues to post according to the guidelines which we are all bound to.  If he does, his probation status will be removed and he will be restored to his full and proper rank.    The question of how we are removing his right to free speech is debatable, since he has exactly the same rights and privilidges to post as he did before.

[landyman Ash]

Blimey, what a debate!  This is MC debates as good as they come!

At the end of the day this thread alone has been left untouched showing the level of debate that the MC can generate.  Be it issues of what engine oil to use to the likes of suspension of as member the MC is usually a very free and open forum.  

Lets face it, all of us Im sure have at least oen post "moderated" as we all get a bit slack onec in a while. The moderators dont get paid they do this for the love of the club. Im chairman of the Aylesbury LR fanatics club and have been in this situation on countless times. Trying to please everyone is a total nightmare and not a situation that anyone wants to be in.  

Mikee is a very popular member, his scotish personality and enthusisam for the green oval and all things 4x4 is wildly addictive.  He doesnt want to leave, the MC members (like me) dont want him to leave BUT the moderators dont want him to leave either.  Wether putting him on probabtion is the ideal way to deal with this is right or wrong is to acerayin extent now in the past.  Mikees posts last night were full of knowledge, laughter and Mikee at his best with no swearing, abuse of moderators etc so surely that must state something.

If Mikee wanted an argument then he would of had one by now and I know hes reading all this with great interest as Im sure we all are too.

We have all learnt something from this and we are all in agrement that this is soemthing we dont want to see happen again.  Mikee will be back, thats clear from his postings last night (very calm and cool, even for a firey scot like "leadboots"!!!) so surely the MC on the mend again.

The post that was deleted from Mikee can be seen as "loss of free speech" but then it can also be seen potential to upset people and create an argument.  Mikee didnt kick off so the rest of us shoudl not too.  This thread has proved we can all have a dam good debate about this.

Ive no doubt Mikee will be back, some of us are placid as a peach, others a firey as a Defender 90 on emmerdale which is what makes the MC so well balanced.

Its a bit of mess but its getting sorted Im sure but both moderators and members and Mikee himself.

And anyway, he cant go as he's promised me a weekend in Scotland so he wont upset anyone as I'll be well gutted  

[TimM]

You all enjoy the right to offroad, and no-one wants to see that taken away... but you are happy for the mods to take away members rights just like that and without a fight... Maybe the government should just close all byways to motorised transport, and say "Tuff Doo Dahs" to anyone that opposes them....

We all want to offroad, and we all agree to follow the GLASS code of conduct, and in posting we all agree to follow the Mud-Club code of conduct.

If you here of lunatics on greenlanes they are the ones the anti's are complaining about, and they are the ones risking getting lanes shut down, do we not want to stop them risking ruining our access?

Where is the difference?

[EvilEd]

Well said Landyman... but this was never about the post that was deleted...

I'm glad he's stayed, even though I have no idea who he is and despite the fact he's a "Green Oval Lover" :)

[muddyweb]

Ash,

I agree with everything you said there, except....

The post that was deleted from Mikee can be seen as "loss of free speech" but then it can also be seen potential to upset people and create an argument.  Mikee didnt kick off so the rest of us shoudl not too.  

The post wasn't deleted... as I said earlier if it had been, this whole thread would never have happened.  It was just locked.

And once again I say... if this thread isn't free speech, then I don't know what is !