Cones

[Thrasher]

Nope..not arrogant. I'm a tightwad. I would NEVER have bought traction aids for £500 an axle.

But this is like the oil/grease in swivels debate. The only way you can prove anything is physically. Get a standard vehicle, with standard suspension, and an obstacle. Drive both over. See what happens.

[Hightower]

I had a discussion about extreme suspension setups with the nice man who had this very argument with a salesman on the Scorpion stand at Billing.

As he tried to explain to this salesman, although it looks very nice and it will keep your wheels on the ground for longer, the traction the dropped wheel has is very minimal.  The reason for this is simple.  As soon as the spring dislocates there is nothing but the weight of the axle keeping the wheel on the ground.  With the spring in place at least you have the weight of the vehicle pushing the axle down.  To prove his point he lifted up the dislocated wheel off of the floor with one hand and asked how much traction that was supposed to provide.
He was asked to leave the stand shortly afterwards.

PS - Neil, where did you get your LSD's from then?  PM required please  

[wizard]

My bottom mounted  cone !!!






Maddonnas top mounted cones !!!



wizard

[Mace]

Disclocating a wheel does NOT aid traction to a great extent, especially if you have shorter springs?!

Ahah Thrasher, caught you out, you're starting to believe me, now you say "to a great extent"....

implication being that it might actually work  

[Mace]

To prove his point he lifted up the dislocated wheel off of the floor with one hand and asked how much traction that was supposed to provide

A. First of all impressive. My wheels and tyre weigh a ton and I'm a weedy 10 stone so I'd probably need two hands to lift a wheel/mud tyre/axle

B. If one wheel was dislocated it would imply that the other wheel / spring was compressed. Your standard diff would not turn this grounded wheel but would spin the dislocated wheel as it was the wheel with least resistance.

So spinning this wheel (even tho it's only got it's own weight pushing it down) will achieve nothing, correct ?

[Henry Webster]

So spinning this wheel (even tho it's only got it's own weight pushing it down) will achieve nothing, correct ?

A 'light' wheel spinning will only dig or scuff the surface and provide little in the way of traction.  In much the same way as locking the brakes does little for braking!

If I am heading sideways for an obstacle, the last thing I want to do is to stop the wheels from spinning.  If they are spinning, I am less likely to get into a roll situation as the spinning wheels should hopefully slide over the top.  That's the theory anyway!

It gets into the realms of soil dynamics and coefficients of grip.

If you do find yourself in a cross axle situation like you quote chances are you would be better trying left foot breaking to encourage the diff to transfer the power back to the wheel with the grip.

Regards

H

[gords]

Wow, another interesting "hot" topic (or is it the same? ) - very interesting reading.

Can I please ask that as many of you as possible congregate around the BBQ at Whaddon and provide the nights entertainment  :lol:

Just to add to the fire ... I mean conversation - my car still has it's anti-roll bars and a 1" lift. If/when I get into a situation where one wheel is off the ground (past the limit of articulation), then the car will potentially be unbalanced, I assume tending to go where the lifted wheel should be (on the ground).

If I had super articulation and the wheel actually managed to stay on the ground, would that make the car more stable? I.e. the shock absorber (at least) would help reduce the speed of change?

Basically, if all 4 wheels are on the ground (at least touching, not necessarily with much weight from the car), does that make it more stable/controlable?

[rollazuki]

If you do find yourself in a cross axle situation like you quote chances are you would be better trying left foot breaking to encourage the diff to transfer the power back to the wheel with the grip.

I dont get crossaxled, I use dislocation cones, my wheels stay on the ground :D

If that fails, I flick in the ARB's :D

Rolla

[muddyweb]

Traction benefits aside....   one thing to be wary of is the additional strain being put on the drivetrain and suspension with large amounts of axle movement.

The bushes are put under more compression, the driveline UJs run at high angles putting strain on them and the input / output bearings of the diff and transfer box.

You also get very exciting effects if the drooping wheel suddenly does find some grip.  The rear radius arm of a Land Rover is designed fundamentally to work in compression.. the further away from it's 'natural' position it gets, the more oblique the forces applied to it become.    Even "heavy duty" arms can be bent up like a banana with a bit too much power and some sudden grip.

These things are what keep us amused on dark nights when playing with suspension :-)

[Eeyore]

The rear radius arm of a Land Rover is designed fundamentally to work in compression..  

Umm, don't you mean tension, unless your working on the front?  :? Apply a big force, axially from the wrong end and they do 'pretzl' nicely, without adding off-axis loadings!.

cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[muddyweb]

:oops:

must concentrate on one thing at once  :roll:

[Thrasher]

Mace,

Go to the video section of mud-club and download the "Belgium2" video. Watch George with his non-anti-rollbar suspension get stuck, and the anti-roll barred vehicles walk the twister.....

[Dave]

CONES I went to whaddon last year. The spring came out of place, did not notice till started to drive home and smelt rubber tyres £100 odd each stopped at the side of the road Chris "big boy" helped me put it back in. Don't want it to happen again. I have 2" lift springs and shocks should this not happen :?:  Hence the cones.

[chuggaman]

from my personal experience


using <expletive deleted>(laughs at tim) cones.


dislocating suspension travel really made no difference to traction

ie wheels moving the vehicle forward

but it does allow me to travel through crossaxled situations a little better(dependant on speed)

it does allow me to pop over larger mounds at a diagonal angle and not get grounded.

i dont have bump stops anywhere near long enough to stop the wheel hitting the rear inner arch.

although twin shocks allow a little more resistance

so if i drive quick enough then the wheel and arch do not contact

the a frame ball joint bears the brunt of this stress

if i came to a halt in a cross axled situation and my wheel made contact with the inner arch then halfshafts could easily snap.

my god ive rambled on

traction======no
get further =======yes
cause more damage=======yes


wheels on ground doesnt equal traction

bodys hanging on the vehicle over the spinning wheel helps

the physics are in the above comment


but as for my <expletive deleted>(second laugh at tim ) cones

i am keeping them


mike

[Bulli]

Poppycock, the lot of ya...old debate no-one will ever conclude. Each seem to be entrenched on one side or the other and no-one is giving ground.
I dont know the answer either....Simon i'm worried about your comment. I wouldn't want to meet the bloke who could lift my dislocated axle one handed....how big was he or is this an urban myth, the giant scorpion axle monster??? Im 16 and a half stone of lard and pretty strong. I will try this in the light tomorrow and i suspect that it isnt possible.
The only benefit i can see is that with increased travel the suspension reacts more steadily and allows the vehicle to remain more stable...but the taller the vehicle the less stable it will become.

[chuggaman]

:twisted:  im loving this forum   :twisted:



debate after dabate

it like the house of commons


mike

[Bulli]

no mate thats full of people who mass-debate!

[davidlandy]

cant lift an axle one handed?

eat more greens!

 

[Thrasher]

Of the vehicles which are mine, one could be modified to "dislocate" a spring,the other *could not*. Is the one which can't inferior to the one that can?

[scorpio]

Of the vehicles which are mine, one could be modified to "dislocate" a spring,the other *could not*. Is the one which can't inferior to the one that can?

IMHO yes because the one that can't isn't a Discovery  :lol:  :lol:  but then I am biased

[chuggaman]

Of the vehicles which are mine, one could be modified to "dislocate" a spring,the other *could not*. Is the one which can't inferior to the one that can?

perfect opportunity to come to whaddon and test the theory.

you know you should be there


mike

[Thrasher]

Pete,

Remember at least one of your Discovery's was born from the RR :-)

Can't do Whaddon. Work.

Oh and...trust me...Mace would not like it, as the factory spec one comes with added traction enhancements I can't switch off.....

[scorpio]

Pete,

Remember at least one of your Discovery's was born from the RR :-)

Does that mean  as it is the son or daughter of RR it will be better in the long run as it will grow up not to have daddys and mommys faults  :shock:  :lol:  :lol:

[Thrasher]

Well currently the RRS is suffering from the LR3 faults.....so......er....

[scorpio]

Well currently the RRS is suffering from the LR3 faults.....so......er....

argghhhhh in breeding now look what they have done ](*,)  ](*,)

[littlepow]

I think this guy may hold the answer,

http://www.sproklegrommet.co.uk/LRSuspension/Index.asp


Oh and the only type of cone you need is a 99!

[Bulli]

Pants!! blow up rubber ...if you like that kind of thing?!? Lottery win anyone??
Anyone read LRO? the section on how far you can push a modded Lanny kind of leans toward the thinking the cones are GOOD! shock horror ...what amazing timing...Read it and weep boys!!
Is that the time , im far too sad....off to bed look- forward to the replies.

[muddyweb]

Bulli,

I don't think anyone is disputing that RE-locating (blows a raspberry at Chuggaman) cones are a good idea.

The issue, as it usually does, has turned to whether lifting your springs out of their seats provides any real benefit.  And on that, I think you are right in saying that there will never be a "right" answer.

[davidlandy]

The issue, as it usually does, has turned to whether lifting your springs out of their seats provides any real benefit.  And on that, I think you are right in saying that there will never be a "right" answer.

its just allowing those people who fit cones in the thinking they may get extra traction from it see that fitting them primarily helps the spring back into place. ..let the debate continue I say!

Bulli,

looking at your signature, thats an impressive list of spares you have there - do you plan getting a vehicle to put them on ?

 

[chuggaman]

think a poll might be in order

mike