Spectacular breakdown - trashed Turbo?

[jnoshea]

Hi guys,

Just spent 4 hours on the side of the A50 waiting to be recovered from a spectacular breakdown.  White smoke billowing out of the back, coolant spraying out of the front and the engine reving hard even though I'd turned the ingition off!

The AA guy and recovery guy both suspect that the Turbo has blown its seals, sucking oil into the engine under pressure which was being burnt even though I had cut the fuel intake.  The alternative diagnosis is a blown head gasket. I need some help and advice on this one people  :shock:

If it's the turbo, how easy is it to replace? What if it's the head gasket? Basically, what the heck am I going to do now? I don't mind doing the work myself if it's doable.

[jnoshea]

Perhaps I should add that I plan to take the turbo off first thing to have a look at it and order a replacement new one if found to be the cause.  If this is not the best thing to do first, please let me know.  [-o<

[muddyweb]

Personally, I'd take the head off anyway and replace the gasket.

I'd also check all the valve gear very carefully and change the timing belt.

An engine can go through an awful lot of stress when it does that, I'd want to see the pistons and valve gear before I started it again.

[Xtremeteam]

from what youve said it could be the head gasket causing the water etc to blow out & the white smoke,

& it running on would be the turbo BUT i thought it shouda been blue if its the turbo due to it burning the oil

mine blew the HG last week when i was at college,it was blowing water out & billowing white smoke at tick over & light revs,got to my work at 4 & had the head on the bench by 5,didnt get finished till 8.30 though as it took ages to set the tappets

[jnoshea]

Thanks Tim, is it a big job to take the head off.  Used to be a sinch on the Series II but the 300Tdi looks pretty complicated.

[jnoshea]

from what youve said it could be the head gasket causing the water etc to blow out & the white smoke,

& it running on would be the turbo BUT i thought it shouda been blue if its the turbo due to it burning the oil

mine blew the HG last week when i was at college,it was blowing water out & billowing white smoke at tick over & light revs,got to my work at 4 & had the head on the bench by 5,didnt get finished till 8.30 though as it took ages to set the tappets

Most of the smoke was definately white.  We started it breifly to get it off the road outside my house once off the truck, and again the smoke was mostly white but nearly black at low revs.  A lot of the oil had gone from the engine so I put a few litres in before starting it.

[Xtremeteam]

its not a big job to take the head of a TDi

IMHO its a fairly straight forward job to do,just take your time & remember where everything goes

[ChrisW]

Click here then right click and save as  
Google search

The Haynes manual comes in useful too.

My tip is don't try and use a torque wrench that doesn't go down to a low enough setting that the manual says to tighten an injector stud to  :roll:  :lol:

http://members.mud-club.com/profiles/ChrisW70/gallery/Cylinder%20Head%20Part%202

[jnoshea]

Thanks Chris.  Good link!

[jnoshea]

I forgot to mention that there is a LOT of oil in the top intercooler hose, so much so that some oil had leaked out the blanked flange in the top hose where the EGR pipe used to be connected. Does this point more to the turbo or the head gasket as the route cause?

[Wanderer]

I'd be more inclined to the head gasket going causing it to run on it's own oil.
I can't see where all the water would be involved with a turbo having gone. It's a coming together of oil, water and fuel (engine oil).

It does happen. Not too common but it does happen.

[jnoshea]

I'd be more inclined to the head gasket going causing it to run on it's own oil.
I can't see where all the water would be involved with a turbo having gone. It's a coming together of oil, water and fuel (engine oil).

It does happen. Not too common but it does happen.

It overheated due to the overrunning and I guess the coolant just boiled over. It was escaping through the expansion tank cap.

I started stripping the engine back today.  So far I've removed the manifolds and turbo and with the exception of the cylinder head bolts I'm ready to take the head off.  I can't tell if the turbo is dead or not just by looking at it.  Anyone know how I can test it. It looks pretty old though so since it is one of the main suspects in this problem I guess I should replace it.

This is turning into one of those "While I have that off" things.  While I've drained the coolant and have all the auxillary belts off, I think I'll change the timing belt.  Anyone know where I can get a viscous fan spanner?

[muddyweb]

Anyone know where I can get a viscous fan spanner?

Well, while you've got that off... might as well put an electric one on there :-)

Have a feel of the little fan in the turbo.  See how much lateral movement there is in it.  Does it turn freely, etc.

[jnoshea]

Anyone know where I can get a viscous fan spanner?

Well, while you've got that off... might as well put an electric one on there :-)

Have a feel of the little fan in the turbo.  See how much lateral movement there is in it.  Does it turn freely, etc.

No lateral movement.  Turns freely when moved around with my finger but stops immediately when I stop pushing.  I can't spin it.  The again, perhaps it's not meant to.  The blades are covered in engine oil.  I haven't separated it from the exhaust manifold yet as I understand this requires a new gasket on refitting so I don't know what it's like on the inside yet.

[Wanderer]

I've got a viscous fan spanner here if you can't get one.
You're welcome to borrow it.

[jnoshea]

Thanks Ed.  I'd really appreciate borrowing it as the disco is our only car so I don't have transport to go and buy one.  I don't suppose you've got a 1/2" drive breaker bar too have you? The cylinder head bolts are so flaming tight I destroyed one of my ratchets trying to undo the first one.  Can't get the things to budge  :shock:

[Range Rover Blues]

Probably a little late to add my 2 penneth but I've heard of this before and I's say it was the turbo that's gone, the running on without the ignition is the clue and you were lucky it didn't go bang.  Tim's right again of course, you do need to check everything looks ok inside as the ignition of oil is not controlled ie it has no timing and so can involve what's called negative work where the combustion works against the rising piston.  This can cause damage, big time.  The reason it doen't burn blue is something to do with combustion temperatures and the amaount of useable fuel in the cylinder, plus the oil in the turbo is quite hot and so thinner.

[jnoshea]

Not too late RRB, all comments appreciated.  I'm going to replace the turbo anyway.  Paddocks has new ones for around £400, but there's one on ebay at the moment which I think is the right one.  It has the same part number at least.  His description states 92-94, but I didn't think they started making the 300tdi until the end of 94.  Could someone else check this auction and let me know if they think it's the right one for a 95?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Turbo-Charger-TDI-300-For-Land-Rover-Discovery_W0QQitemZ4587188286QQcategoryZ31348QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[davidlandy]

user 'Timberdog ' had a turbo for sale last week

see if he still has it

[Wanderer]

I'll Pm my number to you James.
I've got a spare breaker bar 24" if you need it.
Give me a ring.
Let me know if there's anything else you need.
My motor is off the road at the moment but I'll get someone to drop the bits over.

[Range Rover Blues]

You aswell eh Ed, there's going to be a bit of midnight oil burned this week if we're all going to get to Whaddon.

[Wanderer]

Yup mines being readied for Whaddon.

As well as a new headlamp bowl for the MOT.
It failed on the handbrake adjustment and a muddy headlamp bowl.

He said he's never failed on for having mud inside the bowl :)
Still free retest as it's not computerised and I threw it in without checking everything.

Back in Monday morning for a new ticket.

[TimM]

Could someone else check this auction and let me know if they think it's the right one for a 95?

The bar coming out of it makes it look like a 200Tdi Turbo, but I'm no expert.

If you got the Turbo off easily (and have gone no further) then as I'm local(ish!), you could borrow mine for a 'test' if you like.

Mine is now being used as one of our main 'everyday' cars though so I could only do it if swapping them over is a 'quick job' i.e. an afternoon or an evening rather than a few days!

[jnoshea]

Could someone else check this auction and let me know if they think it's the right one for a 95?

The bar coming out of it makes it look like a 200Tdi Turbo, but I'm no expert.

If you got the Turbo off easily (and have gone no further) then as I'm local(ish!), you could borrow mine for a 'test' if you like.

Mine is now being used as one of our main 'everyday' cars though so I could only do it if swapping them over is a 'quick job' i.e. an afternoon or an evening rather than a few days!

Thanks for the offer, but progress is way to far on for that, head is almost off .

[jnoshea]

Well I won the new turbo unit on ebay so that's getting replaced regardless.  The cylinder head is off (thanks to Ed's breaker bar) and the head gasket had blown between cylinder 4 and its nearest cam follower port (if that's what it's called).  Given that there was oil in inlets and outlets of the head, I'm thinking that the head gasket blew at this point due to the overheating caused by the turbo failing...but I can't tell.

Now that I have the head off and I have to wait for a new gasket set and turbo should I strip the head down and grind the valve seats and replace the valve stem oil seals, or is this just something people do to fill the time while waiting for parts to come  

[Range Rover Blues]

If they aren't burnt away then run-in valves are good because they will have a work-hardened surface.  Look for signs of pitting, may look like small black circular patches now, on both valve and seat.  If these are not excessive you can leave them, or grind in gently.  You should be able to see a continuous track of clean metal though, that's the seal.  Just the same as you'd look for whilst grinding in in fact.  Remember that the valves are working damn hard on a diesel so want to be in good nick for at least 2 years.  With a bit of work your car might even be a tad faster for a while :)

As for new seals, bit of a no-brainer that mate.  Whilst you are there it's daft not to and they will probably be in the gasket set.

[jnoshea]

Taking about head gasket sets, what's usually is included in these (so I don't go double ordering)?

[jnoshea]

...also, is there anything else I should do while the head is off?

[hobbit]

Get it checked and skimmed for any warping?