Well know London based 4x4 Supplier rumoured to have q....

[Snake110]

I guess the advertising methods of certain companys
plus the garish paint schemes bring out the chav in
some owners and they will buy because its bling not because its any good :!:
and some ppl do fall into the {it costs a fortune it must be kin good}
catagory .

[bullfrog]

I try to make things right in the first place then they wont need to send it back ! Mine are a flash colour but I do offer a choice ! :lol:

[Devon-Rover]

mmm talk of such could lead me on to said company selling Diff guards which bear a striking resembalence to the same sold by a certian Cornish company. Who IIRC have been making then for years, and have been recognised as such for while as being very good. A few blatent copies have appeared in the last year or so. I'm not saying it's true but have a look and make your own decision. It seems that the Off road Accessory industry, t'is a dirty one for plagarising.
Bad form to those who do plagarise.

[discodj]

And donf forget what happened to Equipe4x4 the origional extreme kit and base fit and there steeringuards....? it all looks close to it ..! see for yourself on www.equipe.com and www.lrsoffroad.co.uk

[TULL]

what is it with this club these days it spends more time slagging , complaining,and discussing whats been pulled and why when i joined it was a good humered OFF ROAD forum dicussing OFF ROADING not the polatics of the off road seen ive got to admit i spend less time now on the forum than i used to, lets get a grip and get back to the real reason the clubs here, :(  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[datalas]

amen to that, why do you think I've not been around ?

I have had *quite* enough of people second guessing our moderators and admins.

[TULL]

i think you will find there are a few of us that have got a bit dissolusioned lately, and migrated to other forums, dont get me wrongthe club still has a place on my desktop , and is still a great source of knowledge, thats what it should it be,   THE PAST IS THE KEY TO THE FUTURE

[Sheddy]

I'll get this first thing straight.  I'm not questioning the Moderators actions, just the reason why the Moderators took the action.

A driver got his motor stuck in a field after trying to prove that it was a capable off-roader.  I recovered it, a m8 photographed it.  When I got home I posted it on this forum because I found it amusing.  The Mods locked the thread.

Why?

Because someone, somewhere was worried that the "anti's" would see it and it would further thier cause.  Fair play to the Mods, they had a complaint and followed it up and sent me a PM explaining why, reasons which I support them for.

My "problem" with it is this.  Kow-towing to the anti's and a fear of supplying them with ammunition is stifling free discussing and tales of derring doo - which is surely what this forum is about.

Tell me I'm wrong.  Please.

[muddyweb]

I'll get this first thing straight.  I'm not questioning the Moderators actions, just the reason why the Moderators took the action.

That's pretty much the same thing as far as I can see...

A driver got his motor stuck in a field after trying to prove that it was a capable off-roader.  I recovered it, a m8 photographed it.  When I got home I posted it on this forum because I found it amusing.  

Or... a driver who had been drinking, drove illegally on private land.. and got stuck.. and then someone else drove on the field too to prove a point.

The Mods locked the thread.

Why?

Because someone, somewhere was worried that the "anti's" would see it and it would further thier cause.  Fair play to the Mods, they had a complaint and followed it up and sent me a PM explaining why, reasons which I support them for.

My "problem" with it is this.  Kow-towing to the anti's and a fear of supplying them with ammunition is stifling free discussing and tales of derring doo - which is surely what this forum is about.

Tell me I'm wrong.  Please.

OK.. you are wrong.

Trust me.. I've happily gone to the mat with the antis... on many occasions.   But tales of 'derri doo' like that make it very hard to build a compelling case that we aren't as bad as they want people to believe.

There is no kow-towing, but there is a stand that the admins and moderators, as the people responsible for the site, choose to take... and do so.

[tenpolequint]

Believe it or not I am going to take the moderators side. This forum is tries to get the members to take the GLASS code to heart and would not want to encourage members to disregard the advise given for responsible greenlaning. Although there are stil pictures of multi convoys going down greenlanes, I thought the recommended max was three. But it must be great to have a convoy of 4x4. intimadating for others though.

[tenpolequint]

Ok muddyweb pal  

[TULL]

when we sign up to the club, we do so knowing the mods are there to do a job, they do it end of story, lets move on,

[datalas]

I can't comment on the exact case in question, but generally the guidelines are as follows.

The moderators will allow any number of discussions providing that it isn't rude, especially offensive or libelous.

If they recieve a complaint then it will be investigated and appropriate action taken,  Appropriate action is usually locking the thread, since this doesn't remove what has been said (since it's been said already) but usually calms the situation down, and gives participents a little time to cool off, or reconsider their actions.   It's also a pretty impressive way of ending an argument.

Conspiracy theories asside,  *very* few threads are ever deleted, those which are, are done so for good reason.  Be they a threat to the club via some form of litigation, or in some cases a breach of the guildlines.

Mud-Club is a club, not just a forum, the forum is merely an extension of that.  because of this nature we have various legal interests which we must protect, otherwise there simply won't be a club anymore.

I know this causes some people to go "uuurggh censorship", but frankly I am *far* beyond caring.   Various people have with unfounded accusation after accusation questioned my morality, my integrety, and at times my parentage.   I'm not naming names, nor directing this at anyone in particular, the guilty parties know fine well who they are.  

Frankly this ends, now...   Mud-Club is what it is, and if you don't like it, well go somewhere you do like.

[muddyweb]

what is it with this club these days it spends more time slagging , complaining,and discussing whats been pulled and why when i joined it was a good humered OFF ROAD forum dicussing OFF ROADING not the polatics of the off road seen ive got to admit i spend less time now on the forum than i used to, lets get a grip and get back to the real reason the clubs here, :(  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I'll tell you why it is...  because the membership put up with it.

If you look at any other forum where this thread was posted, it is full of messages of supoport for x-eng, etc...   but not here...  here someone will find an opportunity to have a dig at the club and the way the forum is run.

And, as ever, the people who take the time to run the thing get it in the neck from a few people who don't like something...   trouble is, since we're the only ones who stand up and say it, we get branded with all sorts of names, and get accused of censorship, etc. etc. etc.

If the club wants to be back the way it was... the members will have to take it there, we can't drag it there on our own.

I vote for at least one day when we all refrain from whining and moaning about the tinyest little thing.... how does that sound ?

[TULL]

fine by me , it can start right now

[Sooty]

Well here is my opinion, for what it is worth.
As far as I can see having been on mud club from the start I have watched it build from 2 or 3 hundred to 2 or 3 thousand members and as far as I can see it is heading for self destruct.
It will either have the plug pulled by the Admin team because they have had enough (and who can blame them with all the critics out there)
Or somebody out there will post something, the brown stuff will hit the fan and the plug will be pulled for legal reasons.
So please wind your necks in and stop moaning about the things the moderators do VOLUNTERALLY and say thank you for clearing up after us all and please don't turn the lights off when you leave.
Every body has the right to shoot them selves in the foot but if you do it on a www forum you are shooting every body else foot as well and that is irresponsible.
That has got that off my chest and may I take this opportunity to say thank you to all the admin/moderators and please don't let the moaning minority spoil it for the grateful majority

[Jim-Willy]

I'll tell you why it is...  because the membership put up with it.

Cool, i usually sit here biting my tongue.....

Not anymore

[Budgie]

OK Gents, put the subject down, turn around, keep your typing fingers where I can see them and walk slowly towards me.

Now, kiss and make up and lets all get back to slagging off a certain company who will remain nameless!  :D

[Miniman]

Lovely Weather today eh chaps.... :P

[Skywalker]

Two things

1) X-Eng also get my vote, and my business, the other party, won't get any more brass from me.

2) Well said Tull .................. let's get back to basics ................  and have a laugh along the way  


No; I'll make that 3 things .....................  The mods / admins have my full support :) I've not had a problem with owt' they've done in the past, more the reverse,  think they are fairly leanient really ..............  well done guys

Dave

[BIG-OKI]

can someone please PM me with the company name as i have no idea of who you are on about. sorry if you think i and thick.  :oops:
but if we all stick together and not use this company then the other company's will not try the same thing to others who come up with great ideas that we all use at some time in our life of 4x4's fun. :lol:  :D

[Dirty Gertie]

If you look at any other forum where this thread was posted, it is full of messages of supoport for x-eng, etc...   but not here...  here someone will find an opportunity to have a dig at the club and the way the forum is run.
 

Sadly M-C isn't the only one; the same has happened on the LRO forum; the thread has been locked as a result of 'the few' using it as an opportunity to have a dig at the mag and forum in general. (I might add that an unpaid mod locked it, not a member of LRO staff.) thread here

[thermidorthelobster]

mmm talk of such could lead me on to said company selling Diff guards which bear a striking resembalence to the same sold by a certian Cornish company. Who IIRC have been making then for years, and have been recognised as such for while as being very good. A few blatent copies have appeared in the last year or so.

Tricky one.  You could probably argue that there are only a certain number of ways you can make a diff guard.  I own a roof rack which is remarkably similar to another (older) type, but in my opinion it's improved and better!  I'm not condoning copying other people's ideas, but I think it's quite a complex situation when you get down to it.

[SteveG]

Sorry my post brought up this old topic again :oops:

I just want to add that Neil and the other mods managed it very well in my opinion and personally I respect the fact that they give up time and money to run this forum for us, and as such I respect their guidelines for posting.

I posted the first posting naming a certain company in North London and with several expletives with '*' in the appropriate places. This post vanished but as we all know there have been a few gremlins of late and as per guidance on top of forum I posted again. This time with the expletives removed as I had clamed down a bit by then. This post was removed also, but Neil had already PM'd me and also posted to make sure I was aware.

I saw the post, PM'd back and suggested verbage that might be ok. Neil was ok with this and hence the current post.

In my view this was managed extremely well and I have no issues with the moderators or with censorship. I respect the way they want to run the site, end of story as far as I am concerned.

Long live Mud Club and I hope that the future is not orange and bright for a ceratin 4x4 parts supplier    If anyone else still doesn't know who is being referred to have a look at some of the sig graphics with the 'No Entry' signs stamped on them or visit www.lr4x4.com for a quick peak :D

Cheers

Steve

[Tyke]

I'm not condoning copying other people's ideas, but I think it's quite a complex situation when you get down to it.

Thats probably the first bit of sense thats been spoken about this 'copying' issue all the way through this thread.

Designs cannot be easily protected and even when they are you would need one hell of a legal team and funds to do anything about it. Look at Dyson v Hoover . . . . it took years and a sum of money that few of us, businesses included, could ever hope to afford, to sort out the problems they had between them regarding Dysons 'Cyclonic' vacuum cleaning system and Hoovers 'similar' product. (Incidently, cyclonic systems have used in industrial dust extraction systems for many years - Dyson only 'copied' the idea).

In the world of engineering, designers are often to be found purchasing a competitors product, dissmantling it and reverse engineering a 'new' product from it. Yeah it's a questionable practice, but that's life and if there's money involved then you can be sure that someone will take advantage of what is available, that is always a driving force.

How do people think progress is made and new inovations reach the general public? . . . . . . I'll tell you . . . .  it's usually through research and development and something which I spend a lot of my working hours undertaking.

No-one has carte-blanche on the 4X4 scene and anyone with the knowledge and tools could produce the very great majority of the typical 'bolt-on' protection kits, I mean, they are not exactly rocket science are they and mostly overpriced. A sheet of plate steel, a plasma cutter and a decent welder and you are away . . . . as many DIYers already do . . . . but are they getting stick for 'copying' an existing design? . . . . no, they get a pat on the back and told that it's a nice effort or a cool bit of kit.

True 'innovation' is not very noticable in the 4x4 world as most of it has already been done before . . . . generally by the military.

The fact someone else has already done some work on a product and put it in the public domain doesn't automatically give them rights to that design and in fact, the act of putting it in the public domain automatically excludes the design from attaining any form of protection under patent law. At that point anyone is entitled to reproduce, copy, modify or do whatever they want to whatever degree they choose . . . just look at the Japanesse engining industry of couple of decades ago. Very little original design and a great deal of 'copying'.

Even existing patented designs have full technical specifications available from the patents offices for anyone to view and use for their own purposes. It may not be altogether ethically correct . . . . but niether are many other aspects of our lives and work.

Generally what is happening is called competition, and it helps to keep the prices down for all of us. If it wasn't there and designers could fully protect their products there would likely be a 'monopoly' and that is always bad as it drives product prices artificially high. It is healthy to promote competition as it makes the designers strive to produce the best product that they hope will become the market leader thus ensuring their continued success in the marketplace.

We as consumers have a choice  - we pay our money and take our pick.

If we choose the wrong one, from quality, cost, ethical or other considerations, then thats our problem.


I'm not sticking up for the bad guys - I'm just speaking as a mechanical design engineer and  trying to get things back into perspective.


What I'm saying is that we need these that copy others products in order to maintain the high standards and quality that we have now become accostomed to. It gives us a choice however 'unfair' it may be seem to be on the original designers . . . . and lets face, there are lots of companies selling very 'similar' off-road products. Truth be known, I doubt any one of them could ever honestly claim to be the originators of the designs they sell.

[SteveG]

I'm not condoning copying other people's ideas, but
Generally what is happening is called competition, and it helps to keep the prices down for all of us. If it wasn't there and designers could fully protect their products there would likely be a 'monopoly' and that is always bad as it drives product prices artificially high. It is healthy to promote competition as it makes the designers strive to produce the best product that they hope will become the market leader thus ensuring their continued success in the marketplace.

We as consumers have a choice  - we pay our money and take our pick.

If we choose the wrong one, from quality, cost, ethical or other considerations, then thats our problem.

I think the point here though is there was an existing business relationship between the two companies. The owner also stated at the start of this relationship that they would not rip off the design. This company has chosen to copy the design, sell it at a higher price purely to make more margin.

They are doing it to make more money, not benefit the enthusiast with a lower price.

The fact that they had an existing relationship when they did this gives me personally a really bad view of their business ethics and for this reason I would never do business with them again or advise anyone I know to do so.

That's why it's different.

Steve :D

[Tyke]

I think the point here though is there was an existing business relationship between the two companies

Interesting point mate. I worked for a company that was owned by two partners and a similar thing happened. A gentleman's agreement was made when they split their separate ways that one wouldn't copy the other. However, the 'other' quickly broke his word and claimed that as he was a partner in the original business then he had the right to reproduce designs made by the company during the time he was with them as they were joint designs and he had direct input to the design in the first place.

As no legal rights to the design existed he went ahead and did his best to undermine the original company and it's product. To this day the 'other' company still markets a very similar piece of equipment, (talking about industrial machinery and process plant here), claiming that there are loads of other cometitors in the market producing what is basically the same equipment.

A very tricky situation for those concened and not knowing the in's and out's of what happened I would reserve judgment on the case you cite.

Credit for your loyalty to the one who you believe has the sole right to produce the kit though. True brand loyalty there mate. Given the same situation I would probably feel the same. It's all about ethics and morals and how we feel with ourselves at the end of the day.


In the case of the personal situation I described above, I now work as designer for another company making . . . . . .  Yep!!! a variation on the design that caused all the trouble in the first place  :lol:


Such is the design and engineering business mate . . .  very cut-throat . . . . ethically it's sad but true

[wibble]

just a quicky...

first, thanks for the link to the other threads... have now worked out the 'offending company' and will be placing by hard ernd' in someone else's pockets in future


second, thanks to the mods for doing what they do, it is far beyond my tech knowledge and i admire them for their time, patience and little bit of decent space on this e'r world wide web.

third, easy one this... if you don't like the site... go else-where.. not difficult,

forth and last, please don't slag off the mods, i am sure constructive comments are welcom but winge's just 'p' them and other users off with negative attitute, it is contagious and is not for the better of the club.

i have not been around for a while as i'm a little ragged off with the whole 4x4 thing at the mo. wot with anti's doing their thing, the goverment doing its and the disco breaking down three times (complate new air suspension anyone??. intenal arguing and winging of lost posts etc get really anoying after a while and can put ppl off this otherwise enjoyable part of  motoring

[littlepow]

You only have to change 30% of a product to get around copyright/patent laws. This can be as simple as changing colours or materials used.

On a happier note,

Thanks to the Mods and Admin gurus for a good site.  :)

[matthew]

Bullfrog,

The thread wasn't pulled, but there are people who run this board that cannot allow things like this (current situation) to be published on a board they are responsible for.

Mud-club is free to join, granted, however - if the supplier decided to come after all the boards spreading this information, who do you think would be liable, and who would have to pay?

Not the people posting - but the owners of the servers/boards.

And what you say on a forum or in chat rooms matters just as much as any other published medium.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/23/internet_libel_payout/