Rip-off recovery

[Xtremeteam]

So this recovery was being overseen by Vince cobley "off road guru" (to quote LRO) A kinetic recovery was attempted when imo the motor was too stuck for this to work, and somebody was stood on the vehicles bonet at the time. Disaster in the making.   :roll:

that kinda sums up my view but what i think aint suitable to post,been doing rally recovery for years,done kerr recovery for long enough & now doing hard winching & that has got to be the most dangerous thing ive seen in a while,i cant think of anyway to put it apart from "does the guy on the bonnet have a death wish"? & does a name overtake knowledge & control??

[mud-club-matty]

accsidants happen dont they

[defenderdan]

There is nowt more to be said! The recoverys overseer was named already in a previous post and i haven't tried to lay blame anywhere.
I'll shut up now.

[rokcrawlin]

Well kids upon hindsight it would have been a lot more sensible to have made the winching decision and done a triple line pull as the vehicle and mud I was trying to recover probrably weighed in at about 4 tonnes of resistance and i have done over the 200 recoveries using that cross member and a fair amount of grunt. needless to say I am changing the hybrids arse to have a winch fitted and in future it will only do winch recovery more for the safety factor than the ease of use.......cheers for the offer Drum but i am a little far south for the offer to be taken up, but will be more than willing to show you the lanes round here within an 80 mile radius pete

[drum]

I think with hindsight Pete, there are alot of things that we would have done differently on the day. I can name half a dozen things we did wrong as a group, I didn't stop any of it from happening, and really it only focuses the mind when something like that happens. I think we all learnt lessons, and lets not play the blame game.

I wish I'd know it was you I was talking to, when were there. We've got the 90 running now, but it ain't right  

[rokcrawlin]

Oh by the way most of the recovery from the mudhole was done by my vehicle with the kinetic rope without problems,  all  i can say is it is amazing how many people are prepared to wreck their vehicles by not having recovery points fitted then they go and enter mud runs, So maybe a lesson has been learnt by me, and i hope everyone checks their motor over before entering into a recovery, and takes a slightly different attitude towards what they do and how they do it? I certainly will!

[rokcrawlin]

Drum i would think he would want a new set of rods in it. as what happens is the motor bends one and it throws the timing but it is best to change all 4

[drum]

Yep it's looking that way, we got it running but still trailered it home. Thing is if you get into changing all 4, and consumables etc. your not far off the cost of just swapping the engine  :(  So the question is do we patch this one up, or bite the bullet.

[rokcrawlin]

look for a rotten disco for little money

[Miniman]

Thinking about it now drum if you had put the rope on you would have pulled doug out without a problem...... :lol:

[rokcrawlin]

Lets hear some more comments on Marshalls at the event as i would like to actually know what you all think of us.... and if there is any way we could do better ?

[Miniman]

You all did a fine job. We was warned and all knew what was lurking in the depths it was just a small tec problem we had not you that caused the problem. I personaly thought the off road coures was very easy but I know that is not your problem just a saftey thing.

Thumbs up from me....... =D>  =D>  =D>

[sleeplessparadise]

I thought you were very helpful and you even came over while they were under the bonnet afterwards to see if there was anything you could do.......arent many that would bother. Once the recovery is over for them the job is ended but not for you  =D>

[rollazuki]

Bear in mind the consequences of this going the other way. I know Johnny, hes an OK guy, but for anyone to attemp a KERR reco with someone near the line of the rope wants hanging. The tow car should never have had the engine started till the line of recovery was safe.

If Johnny had been hit by that bit of metal(Probably do no damage to Johnny haha) He could have forseably been killed. The repercussions would have been severe. Im guessing the 4x4 site would have been closed for the forseable future, someone would have been in court this week, and There would have been some Long faces all round.

The 4x4 sites would have all had an insurance hike, and with the whole 4x4/greenlane/anti 4x4 business we need to take more care.


Dont stand near or in line with a loaded rope/cable. Dont carry out a recovery if someone is.

Im off me soapbox now, but this is so easily avoidable, and could have been MUCH worse.

Glad youre oK Johnny, hope the engine can be saved. Dont forget, if a rod is bent and the car has been run it can put unnaceptable loads on the big end bearings and [!Expletive Deleted!] the crank. Mebbe worth chucking a motor in, or at least checking the crank is true.

[nufcgirlie]

So this recovery was being overseen by Vince cobley "off road guru" (to quote LRO) A kinetic recovery was attempted when imo the motor was too stuck for this to work, and somebody was stood on the vehicles bonet at the time. Disaster in the making.   :roll:

that kinda sums up my view but what i think aint suitable to post,been doing rally recovery for years,done kerr recovery for long enough & now doing hard winching & that has got to be the most dangerous thing ive seen in a while,i cant think of anyway to put it apart from "does the guy on the bonnet have a death wish"? & does a name overtake knowledge & control??

And I suppose, being Mr Perfect, you never make mistakes do you????? I don,t realy think you should be passing judgment on an incident that you did not witness :x  

We realise that mistakes have been made and we will learn by those mistakes. But when a so called recovery/winch expert allows mistakes like this to happen????????????? :roll:   It makes you wonder?

The guy on the bonnet happens to be my other half and his reply to your question is "looks like it is you that has the death wish"

[nufcgirlie]

Hi Rolla

Johnnie is fine, but is stressing himself out over Doug!!! :shock:   He appears to be running fine but for lots of white smoke coming out from the exhaust :shock:   When we got him home, Drum and Johnnie spent the entire afternoon drying him out and giving him a full service.  He fired up OK and has fired up each and every time since, but still lots of white smoke :shock:  :shock:  :shock:

I know Drum suspects he is only running on 3 cylinders but he sounds about the same to us as he did before his swim????  We just can,t make us minds up whether he is under the weather, sick, very sick, or terminally sick :?  :?  :?  :shock:

[muddyweb]

The guy on the bonnet happens to be my other half and his reply to your question is "looks like it is you that has the death wish"

OK.. no need for that !

Clearly mistakes were made during the recovery, and it is fortuitous that nobody was injured or worse... this is the important bit !

Lessons for everyone, both participants and observers....   8)

[the loon]

I thought the marshalls did a good job from what I saw.
The course was well laid out but a couple of places found the signs a bit confusing but think that was due to lack of sleep and beer in take the night before.
The course itself was good though as I know that it would have to be catered for every one from totaly standard freelanders etc right up to the modified beasts that where there
The kids enjoyed the ride around (took us just over an hour)My youngest slept most of it though but I think she could of slept through the extream at langdale that day.

Did anyone buy any photos as well?
I got myself one but would of liked more although wasnt going to pay £30 for a CD as this seemed a right rip off

[sleeplessparadise]

We were told on the saturday that they couldnt do pictures cos the printer had got water in and I asked about a cd with ourselves, nufcgirlie and drum on as we had gone together and they had left obviously after the incident but  they wanted £90 for all 3 vehicles on 1 cd!!! Now that was definately a rip off   and they had some really good pics of us going through the water, oh well we did video it all  

[the loon]

We were told on the saturday that they couldnt do pictures cos the printer had got water in and I asked about a cd with ourselves, nufcgirlie and drum on as we had gone together and they had left obviously after the incident but  they wanted £90 for all 3 vehicles on 1 cd!!! Now that was definately a rip off   and they had some really good pics of us going through the water, oh well we did video it all  

They way they where working it when I paid for mine was that you addressed an envelope and they send it out in about 7 days
The CD's looked nice but for £30 for about 15 photos or so (many just a couple of seconds apart so not all that different) it just seemed over priced as these things normaly are.

I wonder if they realise that if they charged sensible prices more people are likley to buy thus they can make a decent proffit as would be shifting more items?

[nufcgirlie]

The guy on the bonnet happens to be my other half and his reply to your question is "looks like it is you that has the death wish"

OK.. no need for that !

Clearly mistakes were made during the recovery, and it is fortuitous that nobody was injured or worse... this is the important bit !

Lessons for everyone, both participants and observers....   8)

I am sorry if I have offended you but it realy does get my back up when people assume they can assess a situation just from looking at a photograph that only shows our 90 and not where the recovering vehicle is in relation to the 90.   The full extent of the situation could have only been assessed by the people that were watching the recovery.   I wonder what redlinemike would have done if he had been there????? Stopped the whole recovery and advised the expert what he was doing wrong?  O:)

[Xtremeteam]

Stopped the whole recovery and advised the expert what he was doing wrong

i have no problem whatsoever in stepping in & stopping someone elses recoverys no matter who they are :!:  especially when they are about to make themselves a danger to those around them

[defenderdan]

So this recovery was being overseen by Vince cobley "off road guru" (to quote LRO) A kinetic recovery was attempted when imo the motor was too stuck for this to work, and somebody was stood on the vehicles bonet at the time. Disaster in the making.   :roll:

that kinda sums up my view but what i think aint suitable to post,been doing rally recovery for years,done kerr recovery for long enough & now doing hard winching & that has got to be the most dangerous thing ive seen in a while,i cant think of anyway to put it apart from "does the guy on the bonnet have a death wish"? & does a name overtake knowledge & control??

And I suppose, being Mr Perfect, you never make mistakes do you????? I don,t realy think you should be passing judgment on an incident that you did not witness :x  

We realise that mistakes have been made and we will learn by those mistakes. But when a so called recovery/winch expert allows mistakes like this to happen????????????? :roll:   It makes you wonder?

The guy on the bonnet happens to be my other half and his reply to your question is "looks like it is you that has the death wish"

Yes everyone makes mistakes which is what ithink that the recovery attempt and the resulting damage was. However I can't see that standing on the vehicle at the time can be seen as anything other than dangerous. What would have happened if the recovery had worked and the motor had come flying out at 20mph?
I have watched the video footage on your forum and not just looked at the piccies on here.
I am not trying to point the finger at anyone, i simply posted in disbelief at what i saw. I'm glad that nobody was hurt and i hope you get your motor sorted out :)

[rokcrawlin]

I am well aware of the fatal concequences that could have occured......and given a repeat situation would use only the winch, it may be a lot slower......  but a damn sight safer, and as i had picked up the recovery off Vince and the decision was mine to recover with the kinetic I do not think it is fair to tar him with a brush because of my actions.and do not think it is necessary to have a session of character assasination on him. and i am still contemplating wether i will do any marshalling at any events of any sort, so if you want to persuade me to stop helping, nows the time to speak up .......Pete

[Xtremeteam]

I am well aware of the fatal concequences that could have occured......and given a repeat situation would use only the winch, it may be a lot slower......  but a damn sight safer, and as i had picked up the recovery off Vince and the decision was mine to recover with the kinetic I do not think it is fair to tar him with a brush because of my actions.and do not think it is necessary to have a session of character assasination on him. and i am still contemplating wether i will do any marshalling at any events of any sort, so if you want to persuade me to stop helping, nows the time to speak up .......Pete

i have been marshalling at events & competing for approx 8+ years (only 20 the now) & wouldnt want to put anyone of marshalling but there is times when you have to voice an opinion & also times when you need to step back & look at the situation in the "bigger picture" ,kerrs are great tools BUT there are times when a winch pull is the far better way to do something as its a steady pull where ass the kerrs a snatch,on ccv & hillrally vehicles then the towing points "will" be to a suitable standard,on a road motor 1 snatch maybe 2,if it doesnt come out have a rethink,ill have a think about what more i can think of

[Jim-Willy]

i am still contemplating wether i will do any marshalling at any events of any sort, so if you want to persuade me to stop helping, nows the time to speak up .......Pete

That is sad to hear.  I would no way have used a KERR in that situation (mainly because they scare me and i would rather daisy chain a few motors and pull gently) but i have kept quiet as you were there to help and the rest of us weren't.  We all do things that aren't sensible and hindsight is 20-20.  Flaming You or Vince Cobley is unfair and bloody pointless.  Keep on marshalling and doing a good job (Hope the Truck aint too expensive to repair :?: ).  We all learn from our own and others mistakes.

[Miniman]

I wish you would all shut up about it. You are all repeating each others comments.

[rollazuki]

While we're on the SAFETY subject, just a quickie.
While we were out last weekend, Drum got stuck going thru some deep mud and stalled, car wouldnt restart (imagine that, Drum and 'deep' mentioned in the same sentence haha)
Anyway, we began winching using a truck using blue synthetic rope. Part way thru, it snapped(fully loaded).


Its cool stuff, it sprung back a bit, and just fell to the floor coiled up.

Id have been happy to have been standing next to it in shorts.

Recommended as far as safety is concerned.

Rolla.

[Eeyore]

I think there are a few things that we've all learnt about the 'bigger picture' because of what has arisen here.

Firstly, if a mistake has been made, expect folk to recognise that and point it out. As long as it's done with respect, eveything should be cool.

Secondly, if it's you thats made the goof, treat any advice and views you may get with respect.

Getting churlish, being insulting or threatening or getting on high horses / soap boxes etc, won't do anyone any favours and will only supress the learnin' process. And if we don't learn from it, there's no point in discussing it.  

Some really good points have been drawn out here, and it would be a shame if we let the negative aspects out weight them.

So in short, respect is the key word. Be kind to peoples mistakes (everyone is allowed to make them) but also graciously accept when its you thats made them.  

Cheers
 8)
Eeyore