How do I build a drive?

[Matt_H]

I need to build an extra drive in the front garden. The exisiting drive is tarmac.

I thought about just doing a concrete drive but it will look a bit weird agaisnt the tarmac i think.  Looking around the area a few people have that red concrete or slabs which look ok.  So I thought I'd do a slab driveway and front patio area (guessing red concrete is expensive), but... I've no idea what I'm doing.

I assume to take the weight of cars I need to put a concrete base,
-How thick should the base be?
-Does it need balastunderneath like broken bricks?

When it comes to laying the slabs do I wait until the concrete is dry?  Do I lay them on blobs of mortar (or is that asking them to crack?)

It should be approx 7 feet wide and 20 feet long.   Can you have the right amount delivered and if so any idea on cost?

I am mega skint and don't mind a bit of hard work but if it takes 6 weeks and puts me in hospital cus of a bad back I'd rather pay a bit extra.

Thanks very much
Matthew

[landraver]

Hi Matt, Can you post a picture of the area you want to make into a drive, also is it sloping, does it hold water (is it soggy under foot after a bit of rain)? plus any more info you can think of!

Jeff

ps have you seen your truck cab? (90 is finished post)

[strapping young lad]

http://www.bradstone.com/garden/index.html?./Technical/how_to_lay_a_driveway.shtml&2


might help

[Matt_H]

It slopes ever so slightly  but that is mostly due to extra mud in the front garden, we're not on a hill so that extra can be removed at the same time if needed. After rain, there are two bits which do get a bit soggy, two ruts basically where I used to park the car up there but then stopped. It only gets soggy where there isa dip and it's only right up by the existing drive.

The ground is really stoney, I dug a little and it's a real pain in the whatsit to get a shovel in, so wasn't sure if this negated using hard core or not..

Ta for the link,  thinking more I'd love block paving, but it scares me for some reason - it's got to be more expensive too!


I finished the wheel carrier today Jeff, cleaned up at weekend and moved the top mount for the hi-lift welding in a new mount and it's all fixed up now:-)

[v8kenny]

Hi Matt
If you are going to use 450mmX450mm slabs you will need around 70 to cover that area
Lay them direct on a full bed of mortar made up of a 50/50 mix of sharp sand and building sand - you don't want too strong a mix so 6/7 shovels of sand to 1 of cement will be fine
Mix the mortar quite wet and level out with a float to a depth of about 2 inches and  lay the slabs on top tapping level with a mallet or wooden handle of a club hammer
Point them up following day and I'll guarantee they won't shift
You will need about 2 tonnes of sand so get it delivered in ton sacks - one each of building and sharp sand - you will also need about 8/10 bags cement
Use a mixer and add a squeeze of cheap washing up liquid to each batch to make it more pliable and esier to float level
£300 - £400 should do as long as you don't pick expensive slabs !

[hobbit]

Or get some crushed stones or rubble type mix

[Matt_H]

Lay them direct on a full bed of mortar made up of a 50/50 mix of sharp sand and building sand - you don't want too strong a mix so 6/7 shovels of sand to 1 of cement will be fine

so no concrete needed then?  Just mortat.

Buying a couple of tonnes sounds much easier, and no I dont want fancy slabs, maybe octagonal and not grey but apart from that any bargain bucket will do - its only going to be landy parking!

M

[MTyrrell]

Block paving isn’t too scary. I helped lay a block paved patio some time ago as far as I can remember we did the following.

Dig out the area to be blocked to a depth of about 8”
Put down a layer of crush and run, about three inches thick and compact and level it with a plate vibrator.
Then put down a 2" layer of sharp sand on top of the crush and run then compact again. Once the site is level as possible lightly rake over the sand to loosen the top quarter inch or so.

 You can lay the blocks directly on to this sand, lay the blocks tapping gently with a rubber mallet to bed them in slightly, this helps to maintain a level.
 Once the blocks are down brush fine dried sand in to the joints and bed the blocks in with the plate vibrator, and then fill any remaining gaps with the fine dried sand.

 There may be a better way of doing it as I’m defiantly not a builder but the patio laid using this technique has lasted the last ten years with no problems.

 A plate vibrator and hand operated hydraulic block cutter can be hired quite cheaply from any hire shop.

 Hope this is of some help to you

[v8kenny]

No concrete needed - just give it 3 or 4 days to dry properly before you drive on it - you can walk on it next day
Pity you are so far away - could have it cracked in a good Saturday shift :D

[Matt_H]

thanks mr v8kenny,

I think we'll go with your plan, to summarise
2" depth of mortar mixed as you said (will be using electric mixer or similar)
[xx] m squared of slabs
dig to sum of above depth, plop in mortar, drop the slabs on top (does it need any drying time before slabbing?), point up next day and then wait a week or two :-).... Also as I'll be mixing with a small mixer, I'm guessing that lot will take all day, will it dry too quick for paving slabs or does that not matter?

also no hardcore or agregate needed (I assume the ground shold be firm and ideally rolled or stamped on)

Matthew

ps arrangements can be made foryou to stop over ;-)

[Matt_H]

last stupid question for v8kenny, once I have the total area, or volume how do I know how much of the ingredients to buy?  You said a tonne of each, if I'm well over my approximations I'll need more - is there an easy formula to work it out?

Thanks
Matthew

[v8kenny]

Hi Matt
112.5 kg of sand covers a square metre so a 1 metric tonne bag of sand will cover about 9 square meters at a depth of 2 inches
It's important not to let the mortar dry before you put the slabs on them so put half the mixer load in a barrow and spread that first with your slabs on top and then use the next half
If you have stamped /rolled the ground first this will be fine without any aggregate
Take your time and start at the top of the slope working down and you will be fine
As for stopping over - if you can wait till about October I might manage it !

[Edge]

V8kenny, hi....could the sand/cement mix be layed dry :?:  leaving the moisture from the ground/soil to set it off :?:

[Matt_H]

Hi Matt
112.5 kg of sand covers a square metre so a 1 metric tonne bag of sand will cover about 9 square meters at a depth of 2 inches
It's important not to let the mortar dry before you put the slabs on them so put half the mixer load in a barrow and spread that first with your slabs on top and then use the next half
If you have stamped /rolled the ground first this will be fine without any aggregate
Take your time and start at the top of the slope working down and you will be fine
As for stopping over - if you can wait till about October I might manage it !

so it's a bit like tiling kitchens then in that you only put down the stuff for a small area then put the slabs on top, bit more down and more slabs etc.

when you say 1 tonne of sand does 9 square metres at 2 inch depth, I take it that is 1/2 tonne of each sand mixed, rather than one tonne of each mixed.

Sorry to sound dumb!

Trug, I've seen bags of stuff you don't wet in the diy place, no idea what they are like or how the price compares!

Matthew

[v8kenny]

Matt
It's exactly like laying kitchen floor tiles but on a bigger scale ! - I even draw squiggly lines in the mortar with a trowel to give a "combed"  effect like tile adhesive before setting the slabs down
Area quoted is for mixed sand
Trug
Yes you can lay on a dry mix but you get a stronger and far better result using a wet mix - once you have tapped a slab in place the suction caused by the wet mix makes it surprisingly hard to lift off
A wet mix also flows better and is easier to level and to push the slabs into

[Matt_H]

Matt
It's exactly like laying kitchen floor tiles but on a bigger scale ! - I even draw squiggly lines in the mortar with a trowel to give a "combed"  effect like tile adhesive before setting the slabs down
Area quoted is for mixed sand
Trug
Yes you can lay on a dry mix but you get a stronger and far better result using a wet mix - once you have tapped a slab in place the suction caused by the wet mix makes it surprisingly hard to lift off
A wet mix also flows better and is easier to level and to push the slabs into

Thanks for that - your instructions will save me masses of time, effort and potentially effort... now for the difficult bit - agreeing with the wife what slabs to buy!

Matthew

[j99mud]

also no hardcore or agregate needed (I assume the ground shold be firm and ideally rolled or stamped on)

Matthew

no for a drive way you need AT LEAST 100mm of crushed concrete or type 1, we allways put down 150 mm of it! lay the mortar fairly wet at a depth of 40/50 mm so the slabs bond to it well if it is too dry they come loose! make sure you do about 3-4 passes over the crushed/ type 1 with a decent waker plate also dont knock up too much gear in one hit if it is warm it will dry too quickly just do a couple of gauges and use them and repeat untill the job is done!
if u need any other info just shout

EDIT:- if you dont put dont a sub base of crushed concrete/type1 your drive WILL sink and look awfull!

regards james

[Matt_H]

so we have
landscaper #1 v8kenny saying no base
landscaper #2 j99mud saying that it is essential

so who is right?

landscaper #3?

Matthew

[j99mud]

definately need a sub base, you intend to drive a vehicle on it and it WILL sink without a decent sub base (you even need a 50mm sub base for pedestrian paving) you have a pm

[Matt_H]

whats a sub base made out of?  How much does one cost?  Can I just buy a couple of tonne bags of smoething, I dont fancy trying to break up bricks and dont wantt o use one of those whacker things as the neighbours will only complain.

so thats added another 4 inches on top of the 2 inches mortar and 2-3 inches of slab - that makes 8 inches minimum I guess :-(

Matthew

[Matt_H]

can i run away and cry please?

[j99mud]

can i run away and cry please?

Not if you want a nice new drive that wont sink

[v8kenny]

Matt
You have another pm..................................................

[Matt_H]

could i not run away and you guys come and do the drive whilst i cry?

[blackbob]

get the local pikies in and its cirtain to sink :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[joe90]

Landscaper number 3 here  :lol:  got to agree with J99mud, you definatly need a sub base, and if you want to do it properly a roler of teram (or similar generic fabric) wouldnt go a miss.

Crushed conrete is usually available through your local plant hire company or even skip hire company. if your hiring a skip, they can bring you some crushed concrete when they deliver :D

[landraver]

It slopes ever so slightly  but that is mostly due to extra mud in the front garden, we're not on a hill so that extra can be removed at the same time if needed. After rain, there are two bits which do get a bit soggy, two ruts basically where I used to park the car up there but then stopped. It only gets soggy where there isa dip and it's only right up by the existing drive.

The ground is really stoney, I dug a little and it's a real pain in the whatsit to get a shovel in, so wasn't sure if this negated using hard core or not..

Ta for the link,  thinking more I'd love block paving, but it scares me for some reason - it's got to be more expensive too!


I finished the wheel carrier today Jeff, cleaned up at weekend and moved the top mount for the hi-lift welding in a new mount and it's all fixed up now:-)

Lets see a pic Matt :D

[landybabe]

could i not run away and you guys come and do the drive whilst i cry?

Don't you wish you'd never asked now?? :roll:  

Ohh....to have enough money to pay somebody.....anybody!!    

[Matt_H]

well.. I am glad I did as it gave me some things to thnk about.. whilst thinking about them an engineer friend who frequents these parts worked out no only the pressure per square inch a fully loaded landy would exert on the ground but also shear values of mud, compacted soil, mortar and all sorts of other things.

I'm not going to publish the conclusion he gave as it's scientifically confidential.

Needless to say the plan is as follows (after digging a test hole about 10 inches deep - the make up was 1-2 inches of top soil and grass, 3 to 4 inches of the nastiests rocky soil you have ever seen, so much so that it took about 5 minutes to dig 1 shovel sq!  after that is clay, clay clay.  I also checked with the wife, the back garden is clay after 6 or so inches too)

plan:
1) dig first patio area (hard standing for bins and motorcycle etc), dig down to clay level
2) sift all soil and return all rocks and other hard debris to make a thin layer of hard stuff
3) compact said hard stuff with anything to hand (small children for example_
4) lay patio on mortar then point next day

Test and see what happens, then do second land rover part in similar manner if all well.

I've decided that a little bit of sinkage if it happens "adds character"

I'll post back in 1year when I;ve got around to it, 2 years to let you know the state and 3 years to let you know if you really should put in a thick base.

Matthew

[way2deep]

groundworker no1  :D we always use a layer of type 1 whether concrete finish or slabbing....just me pennies worth :D would'nt even consider slabbing a drive way tho....block paving is nice or concrete is the only way to go