Lift and the way to go !

[Poprivit-RRC]

thinking of lifting my 110 for some extra hight when out for a play.

should i go for spacers or new springs and shocks. I only want 2" max so i retain some road manners and don't have to think about caster ETC.

also after a good front guard to stop the wheels from pointing the wrong way :)

[Eeyore]

Even with two inches you may have to think about some form of caster correction - fit it, drive it, and see what happens. I needed to redress it after a shorter lift than that, but maybe thats my mechanical symapathy and LR build tolerances

2" is enough to alter the handling charecteristics and induce more body roll - I eliminated it by upping the spring rates considerabley, but I wouldn't recommned this for everyone (the ride is harsh when unloaded, sweet loaded and works excellently at speed (it's the most stable 110 I've driven). I would say go for springs and shocks, instead of spacers. Lifting by 2" will exceed the design spec of the standard damper and risks premature failure of them (you don't want to be using your dampers as a check strap). If you fit spacers you'll still need longer dampers unless they've already been upgraded. If you fit longer shocks and retain the orgininal mounting points, you should fit longer bump stops too, otherwise you may find you damper is used to limit upward travel too.

Despite having them fitted, I wouldn't recommend lowering the shock mounts. On the front it's pointless as the axle bushes limit droop anyway, and on the back they will further limit the upward compression of the spring, costing you compliance.

As for steering guards, it really depends on what you intend doing. For laning and light work at play days, again I'd buck the trend here and fit a guard for the track rod that sits behind the axle, not only this stop the trackrod bending from direct impact, but also protects from the forces applied to the wheels (a more common source of bents rods that you'd imagine), unlike a conventional steering guard. For in front of the axle, I'd fit a bog standard, el cheapo, tubular job, like what Landrover sell - they're light, don't snag on stuff, and they're cheap!

Mind you the racer still has straight rods, but they're reinforced. The MjLee steering guard however is very out of shape, but you won't get a harder working envirnoment for a 4x4!   It does however shred the approach angle of the car, if you are worried about that kind of thing. However, if you're going challenging, or racing it isn't so much of an issue.

HTH

cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[paul_humphreys]

Take a look here http://forums.mud-club.com/viewtopic.php?t=23034 to see what people have done and how it all works. But as above don't got for spacers do the job right and it will handle better as well.

Paul

[markyb]

when you say handling isnt to great,  to what scale.

if a stock 110 is say 5 . Subaru Scooby is a 1

I take it a nice set of shinny QT arms or simular  will sort out the caster or is there anytype of bushes you can buy?


reason for above was i was looking at 2 inch lift soon as i get the 110 .
i already have the OME shocks as used on anotehr toy, .  probably best to suck it and see before i shell out the  200 notes for the hockey sticks.

i presume no probs on props ?

[Muddy]

Props somtimes vibrate bad or not at all usualy luck of the draw i think. I would always fit new ujs when you fit the lift and then they will bed in to the new angles of the lift.

[paul_humphreys]

My 110 is ok with the standard arms, but then again the front prop is longer than the rear one and it self-centres fine as well.

Paul

[Eeyore]

Props somtimes vibrate bad or not at all usualy luck of the draw i think. I would always fit new ujs when you fit the lift and then they will bed in to the new angles of the lift.

Thats not entirely the issue with lifts and props. An increase in the working angle of a UJ increases it's rate of wear (I was informed once it was about 5deg per order of magnitude of wear rate - although I've never actually mathed it out). Lifting increases the working angle (and it doesn't have to be by a lot either). What really punsishes UJs is realigning the diff nose by using castor correcting front arms (they drop the diff nose down), these can cause all manner of amusing wear effects on the prop UJs by increasing working angles again.

As a quick note, fitting a wide yolk prop makes NO difference to the rate of wear even if they can handle more torque before catastrophic failure (unlike what some purveyors will have you beleive). They also work to a greater angle before binding (a good way to grenade a yolk or UJ!).

Also, props vibrate for one reason only - a balance is out. Now the cause of imbalance can be due to imbalanced loading (or nonconcentric loading), or an inbalanced prop.

Now, back to castor correction. If I had the choice again, and because the lift affected my trucks handling, I would actually fit the caster corrected front swivels. Standard arms aren't that heavy compared to the rest of the axle and they are fairly tough in comparison to some on the market. For a host of metallurigal reasons I don't approve of reheated and bent standard radius arms (neither does the OEM). The swivels will address the castor issue without effecting the alignment of the diff and prop. It isolates the problem form other aspects of the vehicles mechanicals.

Just make sure, before you part with any money, that the solution you choose will address three simple questions:
1) What problem am I trying to solve?
2) Does this solution address the problem?
3) What is the impact of this solution on other related systems?

HTH
cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[Muddy]

Eyore can i ask about the front swives?

re these from tomcat as fart of their castor correction 'package' or is it tomcat that cuts and re-weld the radius arm mounts on?

Thanks.

[Eeyore]

Eyore can i ask about the front swives?

re these from tomcat as fart of their castor correction 'package' or is it tomcat that cuts and re-weld the radius arm mounts on?

Thanks.

Good question, squire. I have no idea, but I'm intrigued to find out! If anyone else has any ideas (before I snaffle a peak at their website) I think we'd be gald to hear 'em!

cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[Muddy]

Me and you both i'm off for a sneaky peak now but there parts list has been 'updated' for about 2 years now!  

Be warned tho the 'for sale' page is pretty danm addictive :shock:  :!:  :D

[Muddy]

I have found this:

'We now have a jig made to put positive castor onto Discovery series 2 axles as well as the Disco series one and Range Rover axles -- so -- if you have had a 2 inch or more lift or you race off road you need this mod ---we have the technology!'

as well as:

'FRONT AXLE  CASTORED
 150 ex VAT
 
 176.3 inc VAT
 Castor modified to suit application work done to customers casing'

not even that expensive 8)

[Eeyore]

Well found, that man.

Didn't realise anyone was offering the reweld the cases, now.

The only problem I can see with it it that it will realign the diff nose, just as the arms would.

The price looks okay...ish - you've still gotta strip and clean the axle to post it to them (ouchie) and rebuild on return. Okay if you need to do it anyway. Mind you, the swivels require you to rebuild both ends of the axle. It's a usefull service for the Tomact owners where the swivels are likely to get bent - means you're only replacing a standard swivel (which is cheaper than a corrected one). If the axle case is reinforced too, it'll really isolate the problem and it'd be worth doing with the case already in bits and getting welded for strenghtening (the extra castor promotes stronger self-centering on non-lifted vehicles, good at high speeds). But for the road car - nah.

Interesting thread!

cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[Muddy]

Intresting indead!

And i did think that re welding the mounts will just do the same as castor arms. swivels definatly sound like the best soloution

Any idea on costs?

[markyb]

yeah very interesting thread,

i do think that there is a lot of trucks running around with incorrect set ,

my current truck certiainly is .

Prop vibration  ,  worn ujs is another but differnlty agree on the unbalance probably lead to uj wear in the first place.

im not a fan in re-welding casing etc,  problems with heat ,tempering etc might cause long term issues. if your doing extreme stuf ,

like the swivels option . like you say only downside is replacement.

i will no doubt fit the 2 inch kit and address the issue afterwards if it arises

I suppose the next question is the percentage of wear caused by the 2 inch lift.
if say a prop is good for 100k on a stock truck.
if on a 2inch lift it only lasts 75k then that would be acceptable against the price of a uj
thoughts?

[jeepmadmike]

100K for a land rover component??????

[Eeyore]

Okay, if things work on an order of magnitude change, you could go from say 50,000 miles (for example), down to 5000 miles. Only takes an alledged 5deg change in prop angle to do that.

Put's it all into perspective. Add hard use and lots of articulated movment into the scenario and things can get comparitively short lived.

cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[Poprivit-RRC]

wow guys thanks this has given me a bit more to consider.

my main reason for a lift is to give a better departure angle and some additional body clearance. i think that 2" would be the max but that 1" may be enough.

springs and shocks would be my route but the less stable ride is a concern. would using spacers not allow for the additional lift while still maintain the stock stability?

[markyb]

when ive done motos in the past it always good to go out as much as you go up if not further out,

spacers will add some other issues too like wheel bearings :-( but not sure how big an effect that will be.


im looking at a 2inch lift, will also look at a degree of caster change to if the effects are going to be as apparent as said above.

[Muddy]

I think the effect on wheelbearings is pretty minimal after all look what the competion guys are running on them, and larger off set wheels is one consideration over wheel spacers that may be better due to spacer issues in the past??????

why not fit larger tyres and them go off road and see how it performs so you can properly asses what type of springs and shocks you need.

As you can see here the standard set up flexs pretty well

 

[Eeyore]

Prop vibration  ,  worn ujs is another

That'll be an inbalanced loading then  

Right wheel spacers - Pushing your wheels out can be useful but it can also be a pain in tight spots. Also, as the spring compresses the wheel usually tucks up into the wings, I've seen some spacer and wheel combinations just push the wheel into the bodywork when the spring is compressed. Very effective way of modifying the body work!

Thin wheel spacers are not a good idea as there is insufficient material to support the loading of the bolting (studs can tear out), particularly in aluminium (very much the wrong material to make spacers from in my book). Thicker ones can lead to other changes in handling charaterisitics and put more strain on the steering joints, and the swivel bearings and housings - again, an issue if you're using it competively. The wheel bearings don't seem that bothered by spacers, which is the one people always talk about.   25mm is the thinest spacer to fit, and preferably steel.

What wheels are currently being run?

cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[Poprivit-RRC]

Err sorry should have been a bit more specific. lift spacers not wheel

so you keep the std spring and shock but gain a lift this should keep the body roll as per oem! :?

[Eeyore]

Ahh, okay!

You'll really need to change the shocks (if your still on standard).

If it's going on the 110 pictured, is it still running the Boge self leveling unit on the rear axle?

One of the best handling conversions for 110 station wagons is to ditch the self leveller (if it's got one) and fit standard 110 HD springs all round. Firms the ride up nicely and gives about 1" of lift all round. And it's cheap.  

cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[Poprivit-RRC]

i'll check and if not it soon will be.

the springs do look  tad tired but i didn't want to replace them with stock if a lifted spring would be ok on road.

i think that the HD option would be a good idea as it will give a little lift but retain good road and of road manners.

still tempted for a +2 springs and shocks though  :twisted:

just lots of other bits i want to do first.

[bullfrog]

I would go for +2" H/D springs and +2" shocks all round.
I can say fom personal experience that you can go more and still get a decent level of droop travel.
I had +3" springs and +5" shocks on my 90 with castor corrected front arms and the on standard height towers bottom the shock .
The photos on my site show it in great detail.
It handled very well on the road too.
I have been cranking standard arms for years and have never had a failure.
They are done strictly in a forge though not with a oxy torch!  :shock:

they are a few mm shorter than stock but I have not had any issues with this and you could always fit a small packer if it bothered you.#
I agree that rewelding cases would have some issue but I would imagine that like myself they are following tyhe correct guidelines for this procedure.

Spring spacers are ok for a budget lift but of the springs and shocks are tired then they wont be any better raised !
New springs, shocks and brake lines are not that much and can vastly improve on and off road manners. Add a set of 33"s or even 35"s and you will gain a fair amount under the diffs as well. 8)

[Eeyore]

I have been cranking standard arms for years and have never had a failure.
They are done strictly in a forge though not with a oxy torch!  :shock:

For a host of metallurgical reasons I don't approve of reheated and bent standard radius arms (neither does the OEM).

 

Cheers
 8)
Eeyore