TD5 power upgrades

[beast5680]

Posting for a friend, he asked where or who does the most reasonably priced power upgrades for the td5 defender, he,s not looking for out and out performance as his defender is more of a workhorse towing trailers etc just a bit more power and drivability

suggestions appreciated

[extreme90]

try ian (porny)
dan

[Cal]

I would get a proper remap done, rather than a plug in box.

Pete Bell at Bell Auto Services and Gary at TD5 Alive (both have websites if you do an internet search for them) are both good guys for that, but they might be a bit far away. Gary also does a mean stainless steel exhaust too!

[beast5680]

are there any known upgraders in the south east?

[Cal]

You could try these guys:

http://www.chippeduk.com/

I'm not 100% sure they do landys, but no reason why they shouldn't and I've heard good things about them on the VW forums.

[Xtremeteam]

i could supply you a dastek powerplug if you wish direct from work (dastek)

if you have any questions either contact myself on 0845 3454045 or contact D44 as they are also an dastek powerplug distributer

[graemeELLIOTT]

http://www.td5alive.com

Give Gary a shout, and stay away from plug in boxes!

[Bush Tucker Man]

Perhaps I'm misssing the point here.
But...
There's surely not going to be any (of the advertised) increase in top speed - rather unnecessary in these times of congestion & revenue increasing devices (speed cameras),
As (let's say?) 3500RPM in 5th gear is still 3500RPM with or without extra power.

If the increase in power available is simply used to overcome the aerodynamic drag (not often a phrase associated with a Defender :lol: ) in order to attain the theoretical maximum speed, fair enough, but to increase the speed a raise in gearing is required.


Yes, I know
Most people have their ECU chipped/re-written in order to maximise the Torque/BHP output, but the speed factor always seems flawed (to me) without changing the gearing

Having said that, I'd like to try a chipped/over-driven 110 to see how it compares to mine.
So, if there's anyone near me with one

[Jake]

Go for a Dastek chip
I drove a Td5 Disco without one to Donnington last weekend
We fitted one for the ride home and it made a considerable difference to performance.
Highly recomended bit of kit
Also you could fit a performance filter for higher air flow and a custom exhaust system
And dont forget a nice big inter cooler
 8)

[Eeyore]

I'd personally consider remapping over plug-in boxes for a couple of reasons.

TBH as well, if you're after flattening up the torque curve, changing the exhaust will make very little difference (seen the dyno results from J/LR). Save the cash for a better intercooler and remap.

.....and making sure the EGR works properly  

Just my tuppence

Cheers
 8)
Eeyore

[Nick666]

Had Ian (Porny) chip mine and am very very pleased with the improvement in performance. No the top speed is no different, or what it's happy cruising at, but getting TO the top speed is a lot quicker ;)

Highly recommended (and a great service too - cheers Ian!)

[Moneypit]

Gary at Td5 Alive does a by post service.

You post him your ECU, he remaps and returns it to you the next day.

Details on his website.

[Stephen Leckie]

I have an '06 110, Dastek box fitted. Huge difference. Overdrive now fitted. Knocks 500 RPM off in top gear. Big difference re noise, engine does not sound like it's being thrashed. For me, Dastek is really good. Clean exhaust, no flat spots. Apparently 150 odd hp. Certainly feels like it.  Pulls really well - including big trailers. Don't know about chipping/box argument, but my vote, for a Td5 would be Dastek.

[Xtremeteam]

I have an '06 110, Dastek box fitted. Huge difference. Overdrive now fitted. Knocks 500 RPM off in top gear. Big difference re noise, engine does not sound like it's being thrashed. For me, Dastek is really good. Clean exhaust, no flat spots. Apparently 150 odd hp. Certainly feels like it.  Pulls really well - including big trailers. Don't know about chipping/box argument, but my vote, for a Td5 would be Dastek.

with a dastek intercooler,dastek powerplug,exhaust & filter it puts out 175bhp with a bit left to play with,after that it helps to have a EGT interface,

Can an ECU reflash do that?    :roll:

[CarlS110]

I have just had my crew-cab tuned by J&E Engineering. Its had a stage 2 tune, the difference was unbelievable !!! Highly recommend them for any type tuning work

[Porny]

I'd personally consider remapping over plug-in boxes for a couple of reasons.

TBH as well, if you're after flattening up the torque curve, changing the exhaust will make very little difference (seen the dyno results from J/LR). Save the cash for a better intercooler and remap.

.....and making sure the EGR works properly  

Just my tuppence

Cheers
 8)
Eeyore

Or get rid of the EGR completely!!!  
(not that I now have a kit that does that......).  Un-needed for anything apart from european legislation.

As mentioned by Eeyore the standard LR exhaust isn't that bad at all... the early Td5 down pipe without the CAT (of sorts) is the best of the bunch and a replacement straight through pipe does make a massive difference the exhaust note!! (and a 'marginal' improvement in peformance).

Plug in boxes.... does the Dastek unit know when the engine develops a fault??  If engine goes into limp home mode for example isn't the plug in box still trying to add more fuel?  :?

Having said that, I'd like to try a chipped/over-driven 110 to see how it compares to mine.
So, if there's anyone near me with one

Bush Tucker Man -  the offer still stands if you want to try a remap in yours... my girlfriends parents isn't 'that' far from yours (about 50 miles each way) - so if you wanted to have drive over I could put a remapped ECU into your 110 if you wanted to have a go??? (up there on the 24/25th March)
Better off always trying it in your own car  


I'd never sell a remap for any claim in increased top end speed... a remap makes a massive difference to mid range torque and pull away.  Tipping in (or a stab on the throttle) will actually make you accelerate (i.e. push you back into your seat) rather than just a gradual increase in speed.  A remap will massively improve the way your Td5 drives!!


One of my next things to try is what the engineers from Land Rover did (advanced diesel engineering).... they found it makes a 'massive' difference to the way the Td5 drives!!!  Eeyore you may have already spoke to the same person???
But was sidelined due to cost......


Ian

[Porny]

Gary at Td5 Alive does a by post service.

You post him your ECU, he remaps and returns it to you the next day.

Details on his website.

Not hard to offer that service.... however I do have one problem with it, along with all the people who offer plug in boxes!!!  :shock: ...

(Regardless of the fact that most of the people who are retailers for plug in boxes have absolutely no technical know how... i.e. Muppets!!!.... Who simply sell plug in boxes without really knowing what they are selling! - I even had one bloke trying to convince me the plug in box they sold gave the Td5 195bhp!!! with no other mods  :roll: - yet couldn't even tell me how the box worked.... this was a LR parts specialist)

As a norm I will not remap any TD5 (or tune any other diesel) without first doing a 'full' diagnostic check on the car.  Which means reading any fault codes (and rectifying faults) and doing a 'live' engine check.

There is absolutely no point in remapping a car that has engine faults!!!

Without doing a full check there is no way to ascertain that the engine is free from problems.  An owner may simply be putting low power down to the design of the engine, rather than a fault with part of the engine!!!  

A remap or plug in box will simply try to mask the fault - but not get rid of it!!! - And any performance modification will not be making its full potential.

An owner needs to drive there car with everything working 100% before they have any performance modifications done to their car!!

Ian

[L90TD5]

Having said that, I'd like to try a chipped/over-driven 110 to see how it compares to mine.
So, if there's anyone near me with one

Bush Tucker, you generally see me going in the opposite direction for a breif moment :D  If we were going in the same direction you would also see me for a breif moment!
 8)

I know its a 90 and not a 110 but a tuned td5 with overdrive and other mods....makes a hell of a difference.

If you ever want to try before you buy with a performance mod, just let me know.

T

ps: Ian also did my remap. Works WITH the engine and doesnt confuse it like plug in's. Smooth power delivery, no black smoke. Perfect. However, your right in the sense that gearing is the ultimate modification. Hence the GKN. No point in all power and no legs ey?
 

[Jake]

however I do have one problem with it, along with all the people who offer plug in boxes!!!  :shock: ...

Regardless of the fact that most of the people who are retailers for plug in boxes have absolutely no technical know how... i.e. Muppets!!!.... Who simply sell plug in boxes without really knowing what they are selling!

Ian.
Are you implying that Devon 4x4 are muppets without any technical knowhow?
Thats a bold claim and very wrong statement
 :roll:

[thermidorthelobster]

To be fair, he did say "most of the people".

[L90TD5]

To be fair, he did say "most of the people".

Exactly. I had a certain retailer from a certain plug in box company state he could fit one to a 300 tdi.

You have to be careful, I also think theres a lot of over stated power gains from some chipping+plug in box suppliers.

You have to research your supplier before going deciding on your choice.

I can count on 1 hand the suppliers I'd go with for an ECU remap.

Porny (Ian Baughan)
Bell Auto Services York
JE Engineering
Jeremy Fearn
TD5 Alive
mmmmmmaybe Allisport if I grew a 6th finger  8)

The end.

Do you have a dastek plug box in Jake? You mentioned a plug in chip?

And if I may quote a highly respectable tuning company's website regarding plug in boxes

"I have seen DIY fit plug in tuning boxes elsewhere... Do you sell these?

Absolutely not! The safest way to tune an engine's ecu, is to modify the software within the management system. By doing this, you can be sure that for every engine running condition, there is a safe setting that is governed by the map data stored within the engines ecu.

External plug in tuning devices fool the engine management into thinking it's injecting a pre-determined amount of fuel, when really the tuning box is increasing the injector opening time, just to put more fuel in, regardless of what is happening with the rest of the engine.

The most common plug in tuning devices simply plug into your engine's fuel rail pressure sensor, and add a greater resistance to the supply voltage. This fools the ecu into thinking there is low fuel pressure, so the ecu then increases fuel pressure to the rail to compensate.

This overpressurising of the fuel rail will allow more fuel to enter the engine when the injector opens, hence making more power. A crude method of tuning to say the least, but one that is so common! "

[Xtremeteam]

since its a sunday & my 90 is in bits i shall copy & paste a reply regarding the dastek powerplug from another forum that i wrote,

"We have already carried out many conversions on the X-trail with no problems, but as we have just updated our electronics hardware for things such as closed loop feedback EGT (exhaust gas temperature) & switchable maps for different terrains, we require all of these cars again to enable for us to develop the extra strategies.

We have an extensive OEM & works motorsport background, where we have worked with companies such as Mitsubishi (official dealer L200 upgrade) Isuzu (official Greek D-max upgrade) Ford motorsport (various prototype projects) De Tomaso (Guarà 2000) Toyota motorsport (GpN Rally cars) the list goes on. As such we have the skills & knowledge to develop products that allow the greatest improvement in power, torque, economy & driveability, whilst still retaining manufacturer reliability & safety. This is often the reason we are chosen to partner manufactures & our products are offered through the official dealer network (often re-badged) whilst still retaining the manufacturer’s warranty.

Many of the members are probably correct in that majority of the products out there do not offer any gain & often cause problems, this is because the electronic principles employed are very crude & basic & do not work in conjunction with the standard ECU. An issue we face is that whilst those companies are not technically strong, they are very good at marketing, we of course are the other way about, but then our strength is in supplying other tuning companies & large volume manufactures.

If you look at our product range, you will see that we only cover about 35 vehicles as opposed to the hundreds covered by our competitors, but with the amount of time we spend in R&D on each new model, it would be impossible to develop as many products as our competitors, & given that we have all the equipment in house such as CNC pick & place surface mount board manufacturing, optical recognition quality control, wave soldering, in house chassis dynamometers, software/hardware design & manufacture, it makes one wonder how well developed other products are? Another problem we come across is that our results are never as good as what other companies claim they get out of their product, 99% of the time we are better than our competitors despite their claims (as tested back to back on an independent dyno) the remaining 1%, well lets just say I wouldn’t be prepared to run such high EGT’s – a by product of too much fuel and/or the wrong point of injection in my vehicle let alone a customers.

Some of the things that make our product unique are:

Referenced to engine speed (others will make you believe that they have RPM input 99% of units do not)

Referenced to true engine load (others will make you believe that they have load input 99% of units do not)

Referenced to driver demand (Throttle position, again 99% of units do not)

Referenced to engine temperature (in the event of an overheat condition our product will reduce engine output as a safeguard – no other unit has this)

Proper closed loop 3D boost control tables (not a boost increase due to extra fuel being burned as happens with all other units – no other unit has this)

Ability to alter point of injection (the crank angle at which fuel is injected is critical to reducing, fuel consumption, combustion temperature, EGT, soot content & noise – no other unit has this)

Switchable maps for altering torque delivery curve suitable for specific terrains (bluetooth enabled, not some dip switch that changes the overall output – no other unit has this)

True ECU OEM connectors, no scotch locks or soldering, easily removed & a tangible product for re-sale, if you ever change vehicle.

Propane enrichment control

Closed loop EGT control, allowing maximum safe power under any & all load/time conditions

Also our unit is the only product on the market (as far as we are aware) which is legal for use on the public highway, it has an E-mark (look on your healights you will see the symbol) & has passed all EMC testing for automotive applications, this must not be confused with TUV approval, which does not render it legal for use on the public highway in Europe.

Whilst I can’t promise you biscuits I can offer you tea & coffee, & whilst we really require a vehicle for 2 days testing, I would more than welcome you to visit our premises & have a look around & see the type of things we do. "

now, what i would like to see is an ecu reflash that can take an EGT input,also an ecu reflash that allows alternative maps that are driver changable to suit conditions & also what you are doing....

Can a reflash do the above?  :roll:

[Xtremeteam]

To be fair, he did say "most of the people".

Exactly. I had a certain retailer from a certain plug in box company state he could fit one to a 300 tdi.

You have to be careful, I also think theres a lot of over stated power gains from some chipping+plug in box suppliers.

You have to research your supplier before going deciding on your choice.

I can count on 1 hand the suppliers I'd go with for an ECU remap.

Porny (Ian Baughan)
Bell Auto Services York
JE Engineering
Jeremy Fearn
TD5 Alive
mmmmmmaybe Allisport if I grew a 6th finger  8)

The end.

Do you have a dastek plug box in Jake? You mentioned a plug in chip?

And if I may quote a highly respectable tuning company's website regarding plug in boxes

"I have seen DIY fit plug in tuning boxes elsewhere... Do you sell these?

Absolutely not! The safest way to tune an engine's ecu, is to modify the software within the management system. By doing this, you can be sure that for every engine running condition, there is a safe setting that is governed by the map data stored within the engines ecu.

External plug in tuning devices fool the engine management into thinking it's injecting a pre-determined amount of fuel, when really the tuning box is increasing the injector opening time, just to put more fuel in, regardless of what is happening with the rest of the engine.

The most common plug in tuning devices simply plug into your engine's fuel rail pressure sensor, and add a greater resistance to the supply voltage. This fools the ecu into thinking there is low fuel pressure, so the ecu then increases fuel pressure to the rail to compensate.

This overpressurising of the fuel rail will allow more fuel to enter the engine when the injector opens, hence making more power. A crude method of tuning to say the least, but one that is so common! "

Also whilst im here there is only 5 people on your list that do reflashes,not 6

that is if what porny told me is correct?
cos you cant count the same person twice

[Jake]

Do you have a dastek plug box in Jake? You mentioned a plug in chip?

No I dont.
I dont have a Td5 engine either
I used a Dastek in our works Td5 Disco 2 after the Donnington show.
Drove up without it, drove back with it fitted.
I noticed a nice power difference.
We sell the Dastek product at work (Devon 4x4)
I'll be honest, i dont know to much about chips and tuning at the moment.
Beast5680 asked the question about power upgrades, i threw in my 2 cents worth (having had first hand experience now)
That was all.
 :roll:

[L90TD5]

Do you have a dastek plug box in Jake? You mentioned a plug in chip?

Beast5680 asked the question about power upgrades, i threw in my 2 cents worth (having had first hand experience now)
That was all.
 :roll:

Ive got no problem Jake. I bought a grands worth of O/D from you last year so I have nothing against you or Devon  8)

[L90TD5]

now, what i would like to see is an ecu reflash that can take an EGT input,also an ecu reflash that allows alternative maps that are driver changable to suit conditions & also what you are doing....

Can a reflash do the above?  :roll:

I wasnt aware that a TD5 was able to measure its own Exhaust Gas Temperatures and record them in the ECU? How does the box do this on the TD5?

To measure egt a sensor has to be fitted into the path of the EG somewhere.

Im still confused on the EGT though :) Does an additional sensor have to be purchased and linked up to the box?
Can you elaborate? Cheers,

T

[Porny]

however I do have one problem with it, along with all the people who offer plug in boxes!!!  :shock: ...

Regardless of the fact that most of the people who are retailers for plug in boxes have absolutely no technical know how... i.e. Muppets!!!.... Who simply sell plug in boxes without really knowing what they are selling!

Ian.
Are you implying that Devon 4x4 are muppets without any technical knowhow?
Thats a bold claim and very wrong statement
 :roll:

Jake as pointed out, I only said most....

Devon 4x4 are an exception to this rule (as per other similar companies) - I was hinting more at the Land Rover parts suppliers that don't actually know what they are selling... or how it works.  And I'm not naming names.


Ian

[Porny]

now, what i would like to see is an ecu reflash that can take an EGT input,also an ecu reflash that allows alternative maps that are driver changable to suit conditions & also what you are doing....

Can a reflash do the above?  :roll:

I wasnt aware that a TD5 was able to measure its own Exhaust Gas Temperatures and record them in the ECU? How does the box do this on the TD5?

To measure egt a sensor has to be fitted into the path of the EG somewhere.

Im still confused on the EGT though :) Does an additional sensor have to be purchased and linked up to the box?
Can you elaborate? Cheers,

T

Interestingly a Defender Td5 can measure (in theory) the CAT temperature (in the down pipe - so could be classed at EGT at a push, with a squint - but too far from the manifold to actually be useful) but is not a function of the engine ECU, and is in fact of function of the 10AS alarm unit, that is built in with a CAT over temp dector, but is not used in any market to my knowledge.

Mike, in all honesty as I've said before the Dastek unit is the best of the bunch when it comes to plug in units... but a plug in unit will never be a pefect match for an remapped engine ECU.

Some of the interactions mentioned don't apply to Td5's (which this thread is about)....

But at least with the Datek (Td5) units you actually plug into both the engine and the dashboard loom so will see all the of inputs/outputs the engine ECU will see.


Ian

[thermidorthelobster]

I spent a lot of time researching upgrades for the Disco TD5 and I came to some conclusions.

1) Some of the upgrade people talk a lot of rubbish about what their stuff does.  They'll talk the talk on the phone, and give you stuff about turbo boost pressures, injector timings, fuel mappings etc, but when you actually drill down to what their particular piece of hardware is doing, it's pretty unexciting and often involves extending the injector pulse length.

2) Upgrading the ECU programming gives a lot more control over the upgrade than some of the external boxes.

3) The dynamo graphs many of the developers produce are basically flawed, and often inconsistent with their own data.  Some of the "before" curves show more power/torque than some of the other "after" curves, and nearly all of them show a fundamental mathematical impossibility with the relationship between power and torque at low revs.

4) One of the more "extreme" upgrades seems to almost invariably result in warping exhaust manifolds, so much so that when people post about warped exhaust manifolds, so far I have a 100% success rate in predicting the type and manufacturer of the engine upgrade they have installed.

After trialling 3 upgrades I went for the Autologic remap.  It's not perfect, but it's better than the others I tried.  After a while you might as well just get a V8 and gas it.

[Jake]

Devon 4x4 are an exception to this rule

Thank you for clearing that up  :D
PM sent
 8)