2" inch lift

[POSBORNE]

I`m interested in completeing a 2" lift on my 1991 Discovery, 200Tdi. I`ve got access to the springs & shocks, is there anything else need changing/needing work on? Is it a matter of of putting the new shocks & springs on and away we go? or are there other things that need addressing?

Thanks

[datalas]

this has been covered, in depth, but I'll give you a condensed version,  and I hope that people appreciate that the following is accurate, if open to interpretation as to how much they really need doing.

1, By raising the chassis further away from the axle you are increasing the castor angle of the front steering components, a 2" lift will equate to roughly three degrees.  What this means is that your wheels are no longer turning at right angles to the road, they're actually pointing forwards a little (by three degrees) and therefore the vehicle will handle poorly, and will often have poor centering whilst driving, it can also lead to some odd wear on the tyres.

2, You are increasing the angle on the rear axle too, but since that one doesn't steer (assuming your bearings aren't pooched ;)) you should get away with it.

3, You will however, assuming you correct #1 be increasing the operational angle of the front UJ (this is assuming you correct #1 with new radius arms), this can lead to vibration, binding and early prop death.  The solution to this is either a prop with a wide angle yoke, or, a prop with a cardon joint (it looks like a prop with three ujs on it)

4, You are also increasing the distance between the copper bit of your braking system, and the axles,  i.e. you should replace the flexis with longer ones (the rubber hoses on your braking components, two front, one rear)

5, You should probably fit elongated bump stops on the suspension components as they are supposed to operate at a particular point, and your's would be stopping roughly 2" further way than they should.

6, If you increase the articulation on the rear of the vehicle you are at risk of "popping" a spring, viz a viz, the spring dislocating from it's nice housing point, and giving the vehicle a distinct list to one side when you return to earth.  There are again numerous solutions, ranging from jubilee clips and relocation cones.

7, unless you get bigger tyres you car is at risk of looking like a rollerskate.

8, your wife will probably complain that she can no longer get into the thing

9, the muddy patch on your trousers that comes from leaning against an open door will no longer be at roughly knee height and will now resemble a rather embarrassing accident

[Range Rover Blues]

7, unless you get bigger tyres you car is at risk of looking like a rollerskate.

8, your wife will probably complain that she can no longer get into the thing

9, the muddy patch on your trousers that comes from leaning against an open door will no longer be at roughly knee height and will now resemble a rather embarrassing accident

 :lol:  :lol:  =D>

[karlo]

this has been covered, in depth, but I'll give you a condensed version,  and I hope that people appreciate that the following is accurate, if open to interpretation as to how much they really need doing.

1, By raising the chassis further away from the axle you are increasing the castor angle of the front steering components, a 2" lift will equate to roughly three degrees.  What this means is that your wheels are no longer turning at right angles to the road, they're actually pointing forwards a little (by three degrees) and therefore the vehicle will handle poorly, and will often have poor centering whilst driving, it can also lead to some odd wear on the tyres.

2, You are increasing the angle on the rear axle too, but since that one doesn't steer (assuming your bearings aren't pooched ;)) you should get away with it.

3, You will however, assuming you correct #1 be increasing the operational angle of the front UJ (this is assuming you correct #1 with new radius arms), this can lead to vibration, binding and early prop death.  The solution to this is either a prop with a wide angle yoke, or, a prop with a cardon joint (it looks like a prop with three ujs on it)

4, You are also increasing the distance between the copper bit of your braking system, and the axles,  i.e. you should replace the flexis with longer ones (the rubber hoses on your braking components, two front, one rear)

5, You should probably fit elongated bump stops on the suspension components as they are supposed to operate at a particular point, and your's would be stopping roughly 2" further way than they should.

6, If you increase the articulation on the rear of the vehicle you are at risk of "popping" a spring, viz a viz, the spring dislocating from it's nice housing point, and giving the vehicle a distinct list to one side when you return to earth.  There are again numerous solutions, ranging from jubilee clips and relocation cones.

7, unless you get bigger tyres you car is at risk of looking like a rollerskate.

8, your wife will probably complain that she can no longer get into the thing

9, the muddy patch on your trousers that comes from leaning against an open door will no longer be at roughly knee height and will now resemble a rather embarrassing accident

Perhaps this needs to be made sticky, i know this info can be found by searching the site as i have done it, but a lot of people don't search.

[Range Rover Blues]

TBH one of us ought to wright an article for the technical section, 'cause he's right, how often does this get asked.

[BigA]

Did you mention the Anti role bars? either removing or adding spacers to these too?

I have just recently put a 2" lift on my Disco, and with the ARB's removed and gas shocks still handles ok.

I was also surprised how well the steering handles even without castor correction, but this just may be how badly it handled in the first place  :lol:

[dazzawhipple]

Did you mention the Anti role bars? either removing or adding spacers to these too?

I have just recently put a 2" lift on my Disco, and with the ARB's removed and gas shocks still handles ok.

I was also surprised how well the steering handles even without castor correction, but this just may be how badly it handled in the first place  :lol:

Andy

Have you considered it may be your driving  :lol:

Nice to see you back I be in touch next time we are out and about

Darren

[BigA]

Andy

Have you considered it may be your driving  :lol:

Darren

As if it would be my driving  :?

[Discotel]

Hi mate, You do not NEED castor correction arms for a 2'' lift, althoug a lot of people fit them they are not an essential part for the lift..Just go for the +2'' shocks and spings...You wont notice a blind bit of bump steer at all, you may find it handles a little better...People will say ...Ohhh but what about the 3 degrees of change, you measure 3 degrees and see if you think its that vital.

Regards, Terry

[beatmasterdave]

would brake line extensions be a must?

[hairyasswelder]

would brake line extensions be a must?

Not essential for road use but if you want to give it some flex off road then it is reccomended.  The last thing you want is to stretch and break a pipe  :oops:
They are a good upgrade anyway, Braided hoses   £10 each

Steve

[Range Rover Blues]

Hi mate, You do not NEED castor correction arms for a 2'' lift, althoug a lot of people fit them they are not an essential part for the lift..Just go for the +2'' shocks and spings...You wont notice a blind bit of bump steer at all, you may find it handles a little better...People will say ...Ohhh but what about the 3 degrees of change, you measure 3 degrees and see if you think its that vital.

Regards, Terry

Hm, if it weren't essential don't you think that blokes who know a damn sight more about suspension than you and I put together would have just ignored it too then?

The tolerance for steeing castor is between 1 and 3 degrees.  A lift of 2" accounts for 3 degrees of castor.  So a car built within tolernace can go to between 0 and minus 2 degrees.

[Disco-andy]

the only thing missing off that list i can see is the panard rod. the 2 inch lift moves the frount axle to the right? (i think?) there for the vechical is crabbing  down the road. a adstable rod will lengthen bring the axal back to center. Ill be fitting one of these befor the castor corection as haveing the wheels square seems logical to me.

[Range Rover Blues]

But the change in effective lenght is very very small.  It start to become a concern at 4 inches lift.  I did the maths once, it's a small amount.

[Disco-andy]

the castor angle is only 3 degres, and that seems to make a difrence. going on what others who have fitted the bits slowly. the panard rod seems to make a noticable diffrence.

[way2deep]

The tolerance for steeing castor is between 1 and 3 degrees.  A lift of 2" accounts for 3 degrees of castor.  So a car built within tolernace can go to between 0 and minus 2 degrees.[/quote]


it's just ya luck on the tolerance  biuld...i put a 2" lift on mine and no matter what extras i put on ;ie new wide angle prop.castor correction bars .it just wasn't happy ..all money down the drain  :( so i took everything back off  and fitted a 40mm body lift instead  :D no more grief

[Tyke]

Agree with that mate . . . seems to depend on what day the vehicle was built . . . .  :D


My feel is that some need the 'extras', to bring them back into shape, and some don't  . . . and even then it's down to driver 'feel' . . . . some can tolerate more odd handling than others.


The issue is about safety . . . . if it's not right when done, do something about it . . . . quickly. . . . before your insurance goes up  


Up to 2" most have little problem if any . . . . it's nice to know you've got it right though . . .

[Range Rover Blues]

That's just exaclty it, lift the truck and see how it drives.

Tyres, wheels particulalry make a differnece too.  If you change the offset, wheels or psacers then ebven without a lift the castor angle will be wrong anyway.

Design is a compramise, a balancing act if you like (or juggling :roll: ).

As for the panhard rod thenonce again a matter of taste, the biggest thing is that once it's adjustable you can 'blueprint' or get rind of the factory tolerance.  I'm pretty sure my LSE axle is not dead-centre at any height.

[Lyndsey731]

I had a 2" lift on my old 200tdi without new front arms and its handling was frankly awfull, but then again that could also be the grizzly claws that it was sat on. On the 300 I put QT's on front and rear, the rear certainly help with the articulation and it handles a lot better than the old one though I accept that this could just be the individual vehicles as stated. One other thing with the QT's is that they are 40% lighter which helps if your bolting bumpers and winches on.

Range Rover Blues, how can wheels, offset and spacers effect the castor angle??

Gav

[POSBORNE]

Thanks for the advise, i`ll definiatly take on board all of it!!

[Discotel]

RRB, You have just contradicted yourself here mate, in one post you are saying that they should be fitted as the suspension boffs would not have made them, the next you are saying lift it and see how it drives... :!: ...thats the point I WAS trying to make, lift it then see if you think you need the castor arms... :roll: ..A lot of people fit thenm as part of the initial lift and they do not always need them.

This was not meant to be a slanging match with you buddy, But seeing as I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering I know a little bit of this and that.

Terry

[birdy]

I Put a 2"lift on the old 200 and handling was ok.
Then put qt's on front and back no change to handling.
Then went to a 3" lift no change to handling.
Now running it at 5" rear 4" front handling still ok
as for the panard rod i put a laser light from front to back wheels and they are about 8mm out.
And still running standard front prop!! just got spacers on both.
yet a mate fitted a 2" lift with qt's and the handling was terrible
that bad he took it all off and went for a body lift.
And disco was same year /model. :?:
How can two disco's be so different. :?:

[Range Rover Blues]

Range Rover Blues, how can wheels, offset and spacers effect the castor angle??

Gav

That's not what I actually said.

Castor angle produces the castor effect.  The distance between where the king pin would meet the floor and where the contact patch rests on the floor is the castor or trail.  Fit bigger tyres and this distance changes.

Buty you also have to consider scrub radius, the distance between the same 2 points when veiwed from the font of the car.  Castor helps to reduce the force generated by the scrub when travelling forewards.

the you have to add in the effect of king pin inclination, the front end of the car rises when you add steering lock, this lifting also produces a self-centring effect.

My point was that the 3 degrees might seem small, but was nonetheless important to the original design.

As soon as you modify your truck you are into new terratory.  Some people can live with a car that doesn't self centre, others can't.

At the moment we have 7 (time to sell some) Range Rovers knocking about and each one drives differently.  Oh, then there's my mates as well :roll:

All are within manufacturer's tolerances, with 1 exeption.  Blue is lifted with castor correction, red sat about 1 inch high because it had new springs and was vague as hell.  Put wider wheels on and it was a nightmare.

Now if money were no object I would say quite easily "this is the way to go" and write you a shopping list that comes to about £800.

This is wjat my 2" lift has cost me, best guess

So the advice has to be "suck it and see".  Design is a compramise, if you are prepared to compramise steering/handling for cost then fine, you get a cheap lift that handles a bit wooly.

I've got a 2" lift that handles as well as 2 tonnes with live axles is going to.  Just as well given the engine I've got for it now

[Range Rover Blues]

I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering.

Snap.

The guy I learned about suspension from learned himself from a Mr C. Chapman

[Lyndsey731]

RRB

you stated the following

Tyres, wheels particulalry make a differnece too. If you change the offset, wheels or psacers then ebven without a lift the castor angle will be wrong anyway.

I don't get it, Why?

Now I don't have a mechanical degree so be gentle and use small words mate.

I don't understand how spacers (body spacers yes, wheel spacers no)or different off-set wheels can change anything, surely these are acting at right angles to the axle and therefore have no effect?

As for bigger/smaller wheels or tyres as you have simply lifted or raised the entire vehicle and not rotated the axle as you would with a lift kit the angle itself has not changed?

Not looking for an argument mate, as I said don't have a degree just like to understand what I've done and and what effect it has on the vehicle. Is it just me that doesn't get this? If I'm being dense you have my apologies.

Gav

[SnakeLogic]

I ... don't have a degree just like to understand what I've done and and what effect it has on the vehicle. Is it just me that doesn't get this? If I'm being dense you have my apologies.

Gav

Hey Gav, no worries!  I'm with you!  I'm looking into doing a lift, and NOW I find out I've got to be concerned with "scrub radius"!   :?:  :?:

I'm just glad for the willingness of the members of Mud Club to help me become a better educated Land Rover owner.

[way2deep]

I Put a 2"lift on the old 200 and handling was ok.
Then put qt's on front and back no change to handling.
Then went to a 3" lift no change to handling.
Now running it at 5" rear 4" front handling still ok
as for the panard rod i put a laser light from front to back wheels and they are about 8mm out.
And still running standard front prop!! just got spacers on both.
yet a mate fitted a 2" lift with qt's and the handling was terrible
that bad he took it all off and went for a body lift.
And disco was same year /model. :?:
How can two disco's be so different. :?:

it's all to do with biuld tolerance mate ,ie the way they get thrown together,some are spot on some are well "that looks ok "quality ..hence some can accept 3 degrees alteration and others wont..mine didn't  

[Range Rover Blues]

Tyres, wheels particulalry make a difference too. If you change the offset, wheels or spacers then even without a lift the castor angle will be wrong anyway.

I don't get it, Why?

Because the trail (caused by the castor angle) and the scrub radius are balanced to an extent, they go hand in hand.

Now I don't have a mechanical degree so be gentle and use small words mate.

I'll try

I don't understand how spacers (body spacers yes, wheel spacers no)or different off-set wheels can change anything, surely these are acting at right angles to the axle and therefore have no effect?

I can see what you are getting at, the effects os scrub radius would cancel out, LHS/RHS but a larger scrub radius can make the car more twitchy and also alter the self-centring effect when off-centre.

As for bigger/smaller wheels or tyres as you have simply lifted or raised the entire vehicle and not rotated the axle as you would with a lift kit the angle itself has not changed?

True, the angle has not changed, but the amount of trail has, by the same ratio that your tyres are bigger than they were, approx 105 in my case.

 I just like to understand what I've done and and what effect it has on the vehicle.

As I often say design is a compramise.  The guys who designed the car had a set of values and targets it had to meet.

You have a different set of "wants" from your car to the original marketing guys, so your compramise will be different to the original.

Essentially you only have to please yourself   So if your happy with it then that's 100 customer satisfaction, job done.

As for steering/suspension geometry that's something to discuss over a few beers sometime

[Lyndsey731]

OK, thats the confusion over.

I understand that the trail will increase or decrease and I assume that this is directly proportional to the size of tyre fitted. It was how the castor angle itself would be effected that had me baffled, which we've cleared up.

As for steering suspension geometry, Guinness, extra cold.

Gav

[cardiff_gareth]

Well to make my life easier I'm going to fit, standard height heavy duty springs as the guy in Bearmach says that these will lift the body about 1" and will not require any other modification. I'm not looking to go extreme lifting so this'll do for me, unless you know better and I need to do this and that :shock:  :lol:  :lol:

Do gas shocks make a difference, I don't do much off roading, mainly going to be the odd greenlane here and there, I was going to get the oil filled armstrongs :?:

Gareth