yeah - DNA set free

[Saffy]

The fingerprints and DNA samples of more than 857,000 innocent UK citizens who have been arrested or charged but never convicted of a criminal offence now face deletion from the national DNA database after a landmark ruling by the European court of human rights in Strasbourg.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/dec/05/dna-database-civilliberties

Something that always irked me is the DNA sampling and retention of anyone who got arrested, innocent or not. Such a database is a powerful weapon against individuals in the populace in the event of a near-future Governing state ever becoming hostile.. i.e  such a State could *prove* someone did any crime of their choice by misuse of the DNA sample and other such horror scenarios.

[Yoshi]

Yeah, it has its good points and its bad points.

Look from the point of view as well that if everyones fingerprints and dna were on file, then alot more crimes would be solved.  I understand everyone wants their privacy etc......... but what have you got to hide by not giving them???

Personally i dont come down on either side of this argument, i agree with both sides, i am just playing devils advocate!

[denviks]

i dont have anything to hide myself but i dont agree with them having my DNA...

why?

well the way i look at it is....they can keep hold of my personal details and have managed to loose that. but there is quite good security in place to stop someone taking my money..

but DNA evidence is quite damming in a court room....if they lost my dna details could it be used by someone who didnt want to get caught  :shock: :shock: :shock:

[Disco Matt]

It's not a case of "nothing to hide, so why are you worried?", it's a case of this eroding the basic principle of innocent until proven guilty. I have committed no crime, so why should I have to give my DNA to government bodies? Plus as denviks says, there is a real risk of a mix-up like those which have placed innocent people who are unfortunate enough to have a similar name to a shady character on "no fly" lists.

NuLabour have proven time and again that they do not deserve to be trusted with our personal data, as they seem to employ some real wallies who have no concept of data security. Until they or a future government can prove to us that they are trustworthy then I feel they have no right to gather any more of our personal data.

[Yoshi]

It's not a case of "nothing to hide, so why are you worried?", it's a case of this eroding the basic principle of innocent until proven guilty. I have committed no crime, so why should I have to give my DNA to government bodies? Plus as denviks says, there is a real risk of a mix-up like those which have placed innocent people who are unfortunate enough to have a similar name to a shady character on "no fly" lists.

NuLabour have proven time and again that they do not deserve to be trusted with our personal data, as they seem to employ some real wallies who have no concept of data security. Until they or a future government can prove to us that they are trustworthy then I feel they have no right to gather any more of our personal data.

Am gonna play devils advocate again here.

You say "what happened to innocent until proven guilty".  Well these are tools that would determine wether someone is innocent or guilty.

Also at any time of arrest they could challenge the evidence by providing samples of their dna/fingerprints at that time as proof that it was wrong.

Also the similar name on the no fly list wouldnt happen.  DNA is too individual to mix up in that way.

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

I agree with Saffy on this one. Take it when a charge has been laid. It is becomeing too much of a 'Orwellian State'. More CCTV cameras than you can count. A legal system that lets down the Public. Not good.

[Yoshi]

See, i find that very odd coming from an officer of the law LSP!

Surely you would like everyones details on file, so that when you find an abandoned car thats crashed into someone, its been stolen and the driver is nowhere to be seen!

[lee celtic]

Aaarrr but anybody that has been caught and charged and found guilty will still be held so the odds of catching repeaters through dna is still good....

and unsolved crimes the dna will be kept so if they catch them later it will still stand...

[waveydavey]

I see the point but look at the other side;
There are hundreds of old crimes been cleared by these DNA samples being taken - really evil people.
Some of it is very clever as well; you get pulled for something minor, they take your DNA and find it similar (not identical) to one from an old case of murder or child molestation. That points in the direction, they look at the rest of your extended family and find a distant relative is identical and then all the other evidence fits.

OK I don't like the Government having too much (Especially Gordon) but if holding my DNA may get somebody who is a genuine danger to my girls off the streets then its a small price to pay really.

[Lord Shagg-Pyle]

See, i find that very odd coming from an officer of the law LSP!

Surely you would like everyones details on file, so that when you find an abandoned car thats crashed into someone, its been stolen and the driver is nowhere to be seen!

As mentioned, I don't have a problem with DNA samples being taken from someone who has been charged, but since the rules have been changed in relation to arrest, more and more people are being pulled in for offences that weren't previously arrestable. The database gets bigger and bigger by day and can't cope with the number of samples being put in.
Whats the next step, DNA samples taken at birth?
Don't get me wrong, there have been an awful lot 'cold cases' solved by DNA hits, and I dare say there will be an awful lot more if you consider that DNA samples have been kept from virtually all murders and other serious offences from years ago, as the scientists knew that technology would catch up.
It won't be too long before technology is in place to take DNA samples at the road side, and that could increase the numbers even more. It would be interesting to see the reaction of the the Public, on being asked to open wide and have a sample stick swabbed around their mouth.
It is a very contentious issue and will continue to be so.
Over the years that I have been in the Job, there have been numerous acts of law brought out by succesive Governments to stop the tide of crime, which I and colleagues have had to implement, but which have made no difference at all to the situation in this country.
As for the the bit of holding everyone's details being on file, you'd be surprised as to what is already held! It is very scary. Retention of personal data is always a worrying thing. The Nazi regime were masters at it, as were the KGB and the Stazi in East Germany.
Its how it is used that bothers me, especially when you have the likes of local Councils being able to put people under surveillance.
What is needed is a more robust system where justice actually means justice, where the underdog is helped by a Police Force that is there, willing and able to help, as opposed to chasing round after pointless statistical targets, at the beck and call of a psuedo 'caring' Government, who come up with ideas to try and win votes.
I don't know quite why I have such a phobia against it, considering I submitted my DNA and prints when I joined the Job.

Sorry for the negativity, but I've just finished another run of nights where the local populace showed itself to be more than capable of hitting the self destruct button. :roll:

[carbore]

Best undemining fact I ever heard for DNA is that if you commit a robbery, before yo go pick up some a fag but from a bus shelter etc in a poor neighborhood. Leave it near the scene, Chances are they eill DNA it and get some kid and pull them in and thier DNA was found at the scene.  Also how about a coat from oxfam?

Too many people believe anything that the prosecution will say, there are numerous cases of fit up that emerged from the 70's when the local weirdo would get done for crimes (usually someone with learning disabilities) and they would tailor the evidence to suit.